Speaker 1 0:00

The 20th of March, 2017 this is a left coast podcast bringing you the news, culture and activism from all over the west coast.

Speaker 2 0:58

And welcome to episode one we're in, we let our fence flag fly. I am your host today type areas, Caracas and we are going to be shortly kicking over into an interview about feminism and socialism with Socialist Party USA member. Tina Phillips is a really interesting interview, something that I think every leftist, whatever your affiliation, it's something that you can come away with a deeper understanding of how feminism fits into the broader socialist mill. You on the other side of the interview, we'll talk about it further with a local anarchists and activist and then we will get into some local events and organizing here in the North Bay area. So without further ado, let's take it over to the interview and we're here today with Tina Phillips. Uh, Tina, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself, give us a little bit of a background on, on who you are and what you've been doing.

Speaker 3 1:57

Okay. Uh, well, my name is Tina Philips and I've been a member of the socialist party USA for 17 years. I'm a social worker and it was in Oakland, California. Um, I was going to talk a little bit about how the humor socialist. Um, I want to say I'd been a socialist all my life. No, it's, um,

Speaker 2 2:16

I think a lot of us have gone through that.

Speaker 3 2:18

Yeah. Basically. Um, I didn't like what I saw about capitalism and what it was doing to our society that we, you any alternative that was rooted in social justice and I found the Socialist Party USA online. Um, and it became a member shortly before the 2000 election when I was 18 years old. I'm always voting for socialists, even if I have to just write them their name. Um, actually both based on my principles and who I wants to represent me and my values. Um, so I always look for what is rooted in human civil rights and social justice. And I really believe that we're interdependent as human beings are social creatures. We need each and socialism just, um, has a strong support system. So people can be supported through life. Um, we focused on cooperation. So of competition, we put human needs about profits. Let me see, profit as the problem, which motivates people to ignore humanity in favor of money. That's why I became a socialist.

Speaker 4 3:23

That sounds very familiar. Yeah. You just been doing this a little bit longer than I have, I believe.

Speaker 3 3:31

Yeah. I mean we all come from different walks of life and we're at different parts of our costs and our development, um, but we like to welcome people and meet them where they're at. Um, and we're seeing a great influx of new people into our movement, um, following the election of Trump and also the Bernie Sanders situation. So we're very open to people coming in. They welcome new blue.

Speaker 4 4:01

You mentioned that you're a social worker as well.

Speaker 3 4:04

Yeah, I have a master's degree in social work. Um, I got it from cal state East Bay, which used to be cal state Hayward. It's still looking at them, the city of Hayward. Um, and I gotten all of my degrees from that place. I was born in San Leandro, California. Um, but most of my life, and you didn't study where my parents still have a house there. Um, and I lived some in Hayward and some in Oakland and now I live in Berkeley.

Speaker 5 4:32

Okay.

Speaker 4 4:32

Uh, so, um, the main thing that we're talking about today is the, the intersection between socialism and feminism and issues of, uh, sort of like gender, sexuality, uh, and, and the, uh, the way that those, those systems of oppressions tend to really cross with capitalism and some really nasty ways. Uh, so, uh, I think it's pretty, uh, I think for a lot of us it's, it's very important that we recognize, uh, that the systems that we live under are not a specifically economic, not everything that, that affects us negatively in our, in our lives is, uh, directly spraying this out of economics and getting rid of capitalism isn't going to magically make these, make these other issues go away. But I was hoping that you could speak to exactly why you have such a strong opinions about feminism in the world that we live in today.

Speaker 3 5:36

Sure. Well first I want to say that, um, you know, am I capacity as a socialist and the Socialist Party, I'm also the chair of our barrier local here in the bay area. And I serve on many different committees and commissions, um, including the women's commission and the Lgbtqa plus commission, which was our new queer commission. Um, and I also started an unofficial group, but then our party called feminist practice working group of which focuses on social feminist practice. Um, and it was open to all genders and people no gender. I also write for the Socialists on occasion, which is our Party's magazine, which can be found online. Um, and I do talk a lot in my writing about feminism and intersectionality and about the, basically the importance of telling our stories and our real lived experience and how these things kind of really impact us personally. And politically. You know, one of the old sayings from the second wave movement of feminism is the personal is political. We still believe that that is, it's very, uh, you know, relevant in our everyday lives that sexism and patriarchy and misogyny, these things are affecting us all the time. Um, and so they are both political, social and personal. You know, it bumps up against everything in our lives and so it does really matter a lot. One thing that you have brought up to me before is like what is the difference between liberal feminism and socialist feminism? So us in the Socialist Party we identify as socialist feminist, um, and it is a separate ideology kind of from liberal mainstream feminism. And basically kind of what, how I see liberal feminism is like the super mom or power women stereotype. This is going to your corporate CEO who may be as a mother, but basically is dedicated herself to work. Um, it's the idea that women should climb a social ladder and any economic ladder I can keep with men for power and money. Also very exclusive to European American woman of privilege of access opportunities, mostly because of their families of origin being from money. It's also a capitalist model of feminism. So we don't even really consider it to be real feminism because real feminism is all inclusive and it isn't about making money. Feminism is actually about liberation, not just a quality and it's lit. It's not limited to women, European and American and women, or when that means it's actually, you know, liberal feminism tends to be rooted in white supremacy and the capitalist system. But we see feminism actually is being for everyone. And it's also who did an intersectionality. You know, for socialist feminism, intersectionality means that we acknowledge intersecting identities and multiple layers of oppression. You know, some women are people of color, some of them are immigrants, some of them are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, some are fatter, disabled and many are poor. So these multiple identities, you know, bring multiple struggles. And we see that it is also, you know, impacted by the capitalist system because the cast covetousness then yours is different as a way to exploit an upper class people. So it takes these differences between people and then it magnifies them and says, you know, because you are a black woman, you're going to be double your press. You know, we're going to go off for you. Basically. You're not gonna make as much as a European American woman does. Um, and because racism is an, and sexism is kind of, patriarchy is part of what capitalism does. No, they ain't. They come together to across people.

Speaker 2 9:27

So it's like, uh, one of the things that Emma Goldman was known for is her opposition to women's suffrage because her opinion was that are you don't liberate women by putting them in positions of oppressive power. You liberate women by dismantling those systems of oppression.

Speaker 3 9:51

Exactly. We, you know, we see sexism and patriarchy as a system of oppression, just like we see homophobia, transphobia or Hetero Patriarchy or, um, do you know, phobia, all of these isms and systems that we see, we want, we basically as radicals, we go to the root cause of things and we look at, we look at the root cause. We want fundamental systematic solutions. And you know what? Capitalism, we basically are say, let's replace it. You know, we don't want to reform capitalism because we don't want a system with any kind of oppression. We want to be liberated from that system. And so we advocate replacing the capitalist system with a social or fun.

Speaker 2 10:38

Right? And we, we've seen over the last half century that anything, any, any good thing that we can make or that we can put into the capitalist system is going to be eventually repealed by the capitalist class that has the power and the, uh, social patients to do it.

Speaker 3 10:56

Well, we see the Trump administration doing just that. Right? Right. Any, any measure progress. Now they're trying to ration it back and they're reactionary movements to progress. But I mean, people will look at Obama and say, Hey, I mean received the best sort of that, you know, at least the affordable care act, you know, it was something better than nothing. Sure. Uh, that's, you know, great. Something's better than nothing, but we see that people actually deserve better than that. You know, we have human needs that are not being met. Um, and same thing with feminism. You know, we don't think that this liberal mainstream feminism model is one that we should emulate for a while. That's it. We want to replace the system that we have, which is a future article system with socialist feminism as a system. So you know, women are disproportionately impacted by sections and massage me, um, poverty and violence. And we also see that the systems hurt others, particularly patriarchy, nutria preacher. He actually impacts all of life. And I wanted to find a future keeper. People who've not familiar with this term, it means power and control of men over women. I mean that's the sum is it was really working against all of us, not just women. You know, social stamina is an aims to create gender liberation for all people, which means we pass aside strip gender halls and allow people full human expression. And that's anything from feminine to masculine and anywhere in between. And you know, we don't see women as being feminine men and masculine. That's, that's kind of the old way of doing like the old way of thinking. Like we're, we're looking to take on a completely different way of seeing things outside of the binary. It would also mean that may could take on roles as caregivers and fathers and they would do chores and household duties just as much as women do. You know, they always say nobody wants, you know, everybody wants to liberation and no one wants to do the dishes. You know, like we need men to be equal partners to women and everything online, right? It also means that men can cry and express emotional pain or like you have a male buddy, a hug in public without fear of ridicule. They could be gay or gender nonconforming without being bullied or beat up and they could reject violence as a means to dominate others. So that's really the, the society that we want. One, it's free of violence, domination, subjugation. And we look to eliminate things like shaming, bullying, intimidation is a society where people can be free to point, express themselves without fear of repercussions because of their sex or gender. And those didn't really benefit everyone. Men, women, children, everyone. And we think that this is the kind of society that we want,

Speaker 4 13:45

right? Right. Because, uh, you know, having grown up male, uh, I always had this, uh, you know, I was never really the kind to be a, you know, big, tough manly guy and, you know, that would get me picked on or, you know, uh, not being able to express emotions in the way that I felt was like, right for me. You, you know, these type of things that a lot of guys consider, they consider it separately from, uh, issues of patriarchy and, and issues of feminism because they say, well, they affect men. And it's like, but you can't just look at that from a masculine only perspective. You have to, you know, brought it out and see why it is that, uh, we expect ourselves and we expect other men to act in a certain way that is, um, and antithetical to the way that we, uh, think of the women in our society that it is, it is enforcing this, uh, you know, stricken binary, uh, and separation between, uh, what is male and what is female that I think ends up hurting men. Um, quite a bit more than a lot of men realize.

Speaker 3 15:04

Correct. So really within the model and paradigm that we have right now that are told that they cannot be a certain way is or that is weak, it means you're gay. It means you're your worst thing. Gay, your old woman. It means, you know, you can't ever be vulnerable because those things mean that you're weak. And so obviously it's all, it all is false, like can call false because women are not weak. Women are some of the strongest people on Earth. Um, so it's kind of like, it isn't very future cool idea that men, men are more powerful and stronger than women and women are weak and worthless then pathetic. And that women need help. And the men who don't need help, you know, that's just not true. All of us as human beings need help. We all need each other and we all have human feelings, you know, that matter. You know, and men should be able to express their feelings without being humiliated and shamed and hold, you know, the only acceptable emotional front man and anger. And that's kind of what matters that are told they have to be the strong ones and they have to, you know, whatever. And that women are told that they can't ever have anger, you know, so it's kind of like we're, none of us can really, really be fully human under the system that we have now. And we believe that teacher Archi out is at the heart of that. And so men really do have a lot of incentive to want feminism. They just don't realize what feminism is and what it can do to liberate them from the constraints of patriarchy. Um, and we want the message to be clear that feminism is for everyone. It is not just for women. Um, and it's not just about women's rights. Do you know, it's, it's actually we would like to see you that men be equal partners with women in life. Um, and obviously, you know, it would obviously help women too cause it really takes a toll on women to do all this stuff themselves. We're talking to when we're doing paid work, unpaid work, calcare cooking, cleaning errands, we're talking about caring for family members. And elderly parents and all the emotional care that women do is really taking a toll on women. We need men to really step up, you know, and, and in return they're going to be able to have everything that women have. You know, all of the full range of emotions, you know, all that stuff. But men are just like, oh, well we can't have that stuff. No, we have to act tough. We have to, you know, no, you don't like get rid of the tough guy. I hope we really are against what we call toxic masculinity or hyper masculinity is us false masculinity. You know, it's not real. It's, it's actually, it's a social construction is created to prop up patriarchy and it's a system that we should all reject.

Speaker 4 18:01

Yeah. So I wanted to, uh, come back to something that you said it, that it's, it's not just women who need each other. It's, it's men who need to each other too and then need to support each other. And I think that that really goes to the heart of what it means to be a socialist. [inaudible] is rejecting the, the atomization of the individual and recognizing that there is a, uh, a deep social connection, uh, between people that needs to be fostered, that that needs to really be, um, uh, really be brought to the fore. And one of the biggest issues that personally I have with capitalism is, is how it forces itself in between those relationships. It inserts itself in those relationships in order to extract profit from it. And in the process that breaks our connection with each other. I think that that really goes a really long way to showing the, the deep connection between what it means to be a feminist and what it means to be a socialist.

Speaker 3 19:06

Well, yeah, I mean the heart of socialism is the word Saul, Saul, and we believe it's also relationships are the, the base of who we are as human beings. And so we're talking about, you know, getting back to those social relationships. How do we stream them? So phone relationships between people and you know, we believe that capitalism because just like you say, get in between that it alienates people from themselves, their work and each other. You know, the Nice thing about socialism as we advocate things like, or things like the basic guaranteed income paying child care, paid family child allowances and a 20 hour work week with the living wage. It was one week time for actually caring for ourselves and others instead of working for money. Um, which is actually, like you said, it's just profit for other people. We within the system, when your wage slaves and we are, our labor value is being exploited by, I was in bosses. You know, it's literally being stolen away from us under capitalism. And so, you know, we want to get to a system where we can actually enjoy our lives instead of working ourselves to death. It just gets really sets up a system in a society that functions for wellbeing. When we embrace socialism, you know, the, the great thing about socialism is that it is about democracy. You know, the true aim of socialist feminism isn't nonhierarchical Gallatine society, which means no one is above or below anyone else in power, opportunity or access, you know, social splitting and sharing power equally with others as well as resources. That's why we believe that all people should own the means of production collectively, socially, and, and, and all the services and resources and society together and at, as he's made democratically owned and run their workplaces, you know, we should all equally benefit from our labor instead of having it stolen. You know, we believe in a democracy and every aspect of life. Um, and we believe we have to work together to do that. You know, competition is something that is done hiding us and driving us apart is this dog eat dog kind of thing. We're okay, well, if I need to survive and you're going to have to go, you know, like, no, we don't want to eliminate anybody. You know, we want more room at the table. You know, you don't want to, you know, exclude anyone from this. We want everyone to have a better life.

Speaker 4 21:28

Yeah. Right on. Right on. I mean it, especially in an age, right? We live in now where we have so much abundance in this world. I mean, it's not even that we have the capability to grow this much food, but we literally grow enough food on this planet for 10 billion people. Like that's what we have now. And, and yet we still have people starving and it's because we don't have, we we haven't, uh, you know, build our economic and distribution systems around this, this, you know, fundamental human need of, uh, mutual aid and you know, and being in solidarity with other people, it's been built up by a system that is inherently about, you know, like we said, breaking people apart and extracting value out of that break.

Speaker 3 22:14

Yeah. I mean, capitalism is based on profit, the profit Mona, Mona and perverts. And it's actually a wasteful, we can organize society in a cooperative manner and which no technology and our intellectual forces and our creative abilities, we can all work together to make life better for everyone instead of making it better for rich people. You know, which is actually a tiny minority of our society. You know, when the rest of us are suffering. And that's kind of how capitalism works is inherent in the system. But a lot of us have to suffer in order for a small amount of people to be rich. And that's not a good way to organize the same. Right.

Speaker 4 23:02

Right, right. So, you know, so, so how do we, how do we get there? I mean, as, as feminist, so socialist set as social feminists, like what do we need to be doing like right in, in our world now to make sure that we can get to that point?

Speaker 3 23:19

Well, we believe in solidarity between men and women is key. It's just mutually beneficial and necessary for the liberation of both of us if we work together. So when you support the right of men and melon and if I people to organize for their own liberation through socialist feminism, um, so we have to really dispel that myth. Feminism is about women hated men. The truth is we can't realize if I'm, I knew without men, we actually need each other and many feminisms just as much as women do. We have to really focus on how do we work together and what are we do, you know, to challenge these things that are both, you know, really controlling us and how power over us in a way, you know, we look at what is feminist practice, you know, what is being nonhierarchical, um, how do we really, you know, takes the power structure now or a lot of men are above women in power and horizontalized that so that we have, you know, structures in a, in our society and our organizations but equal including workplaces. So we want to reject those patterns of dominance and submission. We want to embracing Gallatine aneurysm and mutual support and sharing skills and knowledge. We want to go consensus as much as possible and um, you know, work together to improve our communication. So as opposed to men being aggressive and women being passive, which is stereotypical, but that's kind of the paradigm on what we have now is that we both learned to be assertive. You know, we connect our personal issues and struggles. We look at historical on systematic structures of capitalist oppression and we realize that the personal is political, you know, music kind of things help us to eliminate control and power and privilege so that we can equalize our relationships. Um, and we understand that acceptance of feelings and emotions, um, we see feelings and emotions is a strength and not a weakness. Um, and we do not put logic and reason about things like earrings and lived experience. Um, both of them at some of the things that we say. I'm also creating space for women. Just we can have a voice and participate, um, shared space and having women feel safe and welcome. It was a very, very important, um, and how do we get men to kind of let go of things like dominance and having the control of the conversation. You know, I think that that is wrapped up in what we would call them and they'll, you go, right. You know, we're, we're told that men have to be in control and they have to be, you know, whatever. You have to be right in order to be respected. Um, and it's like, no, you know, relationships are a two way street and all of us aren't gonna like need to have a say. And also we're all gonna make mistakes because that's what human beings do. Um, so men can make mistakes and be wrong. You know, they can admit that that's part of the process of learning and growing, you know.

Speaker 4 26:30

And I think, um, I think one of the things that has been a big part of the pushback against feminism has been this feeling that that some, you know, a lot of men have that what it means to make space for women is for men to like step down and background themselves. And a lot of people feel that, you know, they don't, they themselves don't have a whole lot of power and you know, over their lives and are in the world and that they're being unfairly, uh, marginalized for, for other people. And so how, how would you, how would you respond to that?

Speaker 3 27:12

In the same way that I wouldn't respond to somebody who has a European American and some say that they don't have privilege, you know, white supremacy. And institutionalized racism and white privilege are real and they exist in the world. And so as say a European American person, which I identify as an Italian, German American, you know, I can't say men, they'll come prove which I have skin privilege, I have pale skin. You know, when I walk in the world, I'm not saying followed in a store, you know, I have access and opportunity to things like going to college. You know, I have a master's degree, there's not many people who have masters to crease and I just decided he didn't have access to that. You know, how did I get there? Wall. I'm European American woman in those worlds. You know, I admit that there privilege I have, even though I came from a working class, poor background and I still consider myself that today.

Speaker 4 28:05

Yeah. You know, I think it was, I think it was explained to me where it's the, uh, it's the privilege of the default. You are allowed to have a, uh, or people will sort of give you more space to be a, you have your own individual. There's a less that is basically being projected onto you by other people because your default, you know, if if someone says, oh, it was just some guy who walked in, a lot of people are going to think, oh, you know, average height, brown hair, white skin, this kind of thing. So, so when you, when you have that, when, when what you are is the default in society, it allows you room to be yourself without having to fight against someone else's projected projection against you.

Speaker 3 28:58

Well, sure. I mean what's, go back to like women, right? So women that is productive at women are a certain way or that men are a certain way. And so we, we always have the, as you know, constrictions that we're fighting against like the stereotypes, right? And there's bias against, okay, so what is a woman's supposed to be light? Or what does the man's supposed to be like and of our society? Or we're told that women are supposed to be quiet. Um, you know, subservient. They're supposed to be caregivers and they're supposed to be sweet and nice all the time and accommodating. Um, you know, this is ridiculous. Or you know, the, the looks that they're looking for in terms of a woman, they want a woman to, you know, have a big chest, then, you know, whatever it is that they're looking for, you know, these things are there. So unrealistic or unattainable, there's, they're just there. No one can do that. And you know that the reality is by you strive for that, it's the right, same thing with a man. Like there's this ideal of what a man should be a, you know, why, why are we buying in or that, you know, why can't we just be ourselves? Um, and then when we walk in the hall and as women were being told, we're getting, getting these messages, you know, from the media everywhere that we need to be this certain way. Um, and same thing with people of color, you know, that it's projected on it, then we'll, because you're black, you're this, you're that. Um, no, which is not true because we're extremely diverse, complex, multifaceted as human beings. There is no cookie cutter anything, you know, that's the reality of the, of, of that situation.

Speaker 2 30:47

Well, uh, shifting gears a little bit. So you were at the, uh, international women's Day protest, right?

Speaker 3 30:54

Correct. Um, our barrier local, um, was involved in the rally and March at um, in Oakland on international women's Day.

Speaker 2 31:05

Tell me about that. What, what was that like? Um, what were, what was the, the sort of the general feeling in that atmosphere? Um, what did you come away from that with?

Speaker 3 31:18

Well, it was very powerful and there was mostly women, people of Color, young people. Um, a lot of people were red, which, you know, as a socialist I really liked. Right. Cause Rad is kind of our color. It's a revolutionary color. Um,

Speaker 2 31:33

yeah, we just need to get it back from the Republicans. Right? Yes. As opposed to saying he

Speaker 3 31:39

was the color that people will kind of grabbed onto for the women's march. Um, and you know, PJ is kind of, but it's kind of what I was just talking about where like women are told that paint color, you know, men are told the blue is their call. It was like so ridiculous and arbitrary you if like not based in reality.

Speaker 2 32:00

Well, I mean it's so arbitrary that in the Victorian era it was entirely flipped and where boys wore pink and girls wear blue. So that just tells you like how, how totally useless it is as any kind of real signifier.

Speaker 3 32:12

Correct. Full. You know, it's the idea that pink is a light kind of fluffy color and blue is this dark kind of color. And so it gives you the idea that like men or women are fundamentally different and that women are like this week delicate creature and that men are this strong creatures. It's like Paul, your ridiculous stuff. But like as feminists, we totally the Jag anyways, getting back to the margin felt, um, I felt like it was very, well, the speakers were wonderful. There was like sex workers coming in and talking about organizing a sex workers and, and organizing his workers. And decriminalizing sex work. Um, there were people talking in other languages. Um, there were, um, there was somebody from Turkey or something was talking and, um, there were, um, you know, African American women who is to talked about police violence. Um, we stopped in front of it when we did the march. We stopped in front of a police station and talked about how they are, you know, in concert with ice and working to deport immigrants. Um, and so we, we also people talk about homeless people and how they're being affected. And so it was just super intersectional and like capitalism was actually attacks. Like I remember back in, um, when he occupied was here in Oakland and then I went and there was a banner, you don't want anything on her across the street. That side that, the capitalism, I took a picture of it and I was like, yes, this is what we mean. It's, it's, you know, opposing the image of a liberal feminist or a mainstream from us or you know, pantsuit nation and other people who support Hillary Clinton. You know, we're more, are you talking about fundamental change? You know, we're talking against you'll patriarchy and capitalism, talking about replacing these systems. Um, and that's really what we're talking about. Abolishing, you know, calculus and patriarchal systems and replacing them. And that was really hard in this, you know, international loans day of that. And that was impressive to me. Um, because it's not often that you see that. Um, but I mean Oakland is a very special place,

Speaker 2 34:41

right? Right. This is, this is still the East Bay.

Speaker 3 34:44

Yeah. It's not like mainstream America, but you know, it gives you hope. There's glimmers of hope that our army is somewhat radicalizing, you know, coming out of the Bernie Sanders stuff, we're seeing the Bernie Sanders sold out, you know, his marriage with the Democratic Party has said that he supports capitalism and so much that he doesn't believe in only new means of production. So, you know,

Speaker 2 35:11

well, I mean he's, he's been a part of and within the, you know, the, the halls of power now for what, 20 years, 30 years, something like that. So, you know, how you, it's, I never expected to be anything other than a rather leftist social democrat. And I think that, you know, for, for me, I never saw a burn. It was necessary. Bernie be,

Speaker 4 35:38

you know, have fire-breathing socialist. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's not who is going to be in the Senate. You don't, you're not going to stick around for that long if you're talking about dismantling capitalism every other day. But he just, yeah. G But just the fact that he came out and said, I am a socialist and just owned it. Uh, I, I think that if he does, if, if there's no other thing that he does for us, if he, if he literally stepped back now he will have done enough good that I'm okay with that because just that alone, just, just him getting that word back into the mainstream, I think has done so much good for us. You know, to get people to even ask, okay, so what does that mean then? I, you know, a lot of people have been on anticapitalist, I don't like the capitalist system, but what else is there? There's nothing else. Well now here's a guy running for president who says there is something else, and now it's up to the rest of us to, you know, go out to those people who now have more of an open mind and say, well, here's the other thing that you could do.

Speaker 3 36:48

Right. I mean basically kind of where I was coming from that is saying that a lot of people look at Bernie Sanders and say that socialism and we have to remind people, no, it's not that social democracy. You know, when he talks about, um, Sweden and Denmark and all that, when he says that that's what we want. No, it's not

Speaker 4 37:13

as capitalism with a pretty face. That's all it is.

Speaker 3 37:15

It's reformed capitalism. And so I think if people were coming into the movement, we want to, you know, educate people and let them be aware that there is a difference between social democracy and actual socialism. Um, and that we're talking about replacing the capitalist system and what we mean by that. Exactly. Um, and why, you know, I think we have good arguments for why we need to do that. Um, I mean just the other day I got the question, well don't we just need to get rid of corporate crony capitalism cause capitalism don't you just need to regulate more and reform the capitalist system and then we'll get rid of greed and then top one was and will be great. And the answer is no, it will not cause inherent in that system as the things I already discussed, which is you know, oppression, exploitation. We've slavery route not going to own the means of production. We're not going to own our workplaces. Like we've, we need to fundamentally get rid of top movement in order to have this as Adient wants. You know, and that's the reality of the situation. We can regulate and put all these controlled and corporate money, all this stuff that we do. Do, you know, to not allow money to be part about polling on no world. But in the end, if we're a profit motivated, that will not get us what we want, which is our human needs are human needs need to be put above everything and only the social associate. You would do that.

Speaker 4 38:46

Right. And you said that you saw a lot of people who were either questioning or, or already on board with this at the march, right?

Speaker 3 38:55

Yeah, I mean, a lot of members, um, a lot of people have streamed into democratic socialists of America, USA. Um, and I'm cautious of that because DSA supports Democrats, you know, they believe then entry as them, they believe in getting into the Democratic Party and kind of transform the Democratic Party and to a progressive, you know, socialist if, you know, it would be social democracy, but like, you know, the Socialist party is explicitly, um, a revolutionary party. Um, we believe in action independent of the Democrats and Republicans. Um, and we go live in replacing the capitalist system with socialism. And we say that that's real socialism. And that's really what we're, we're aiming at. And so that's kind of what we support. And so, you know, we tell people, be cautious, cautious of this idea that the Democratic Party can't be reformed. Now, as we see with the DNC and who they chose to be heading, that, you know, it's obvious that they're married to corporate money and they, they believe in capitalism. And so we need to pick and choose. We need to choose. If we, if we want socialism, we cannot be pro democrat.

Speaker 4 40:14

So how do you see the, the sort of swell of, you know, the swell of people into groups like Dsa into SPU? I say, who, who are starting to identify with these leftist organizations? Um, where do you, where do you see that going in the next year?

Speaker 3 40:31

Know I see it as mostly young people, people who are already progressed them, but they are attorney against other how party because they understand the Democratic party is turned against them. Um, and they're starting to understand that the, that the real enemy is capitalism itself. And then you got to go at, go at it, root and stem. Um, and so we're, we're trying to build a movement for socialism. Um, and also if I'm Nova antiracism, you know, when you see the Trump administration attacking any communities that I've mentioned, um, immigrant communities would be as Muslim bans, but he is trying to do and um, he was having ice raids. He's trying to instill fear in people. There's a lot of like anti-immigrant southern that going on in a lot of scape goat scapegoating of immigrants and saying that they're the reason why, um, you're losing your job, say it right. But you know, the reality is actually, um, it's capitalism that is doing that. Um, and then it is a system of economic exploitation and oppression that, you know, we want to point a finger at somebody. We can point out the rich, um, you know, they're rich and says 80 are the ones that we should be pointing a finger at and not immigrants. Um, and when you see the Trump administration going after trans kids and making it so that they can't use the bathroom of their choice, like what the heck? Like

Speaker 2 42:03

there's no limit.

Speaker 3 42:05

They will target. Um, and they, they're just savage.

Speaker 2 42:09

Well, there is a limit because the only, the only people that they're not going to tolerate or the people who are actually in power, well, it's true to

Speaker 3 42:18

you know, how marginalized and how vulnerable they are going up to the most marginalized, the most vulnerable people in society, you know, as Socialists. And we need to know me and meant we fight against that. And that's kind of what we're doing is we're trying to organize, um, in terms of, you know, how do me, you know, fight back against these attacks. Um, and how do we not just fight back against them, but how do we come up with, you know, you know, advocating for a system to replace this entire paradigm that is creating all these divisions. You know, a lot of people are talking now about identity politics and you know, I see identity politics as I'm just saying, we all have multiple identities and some of us obviously more than others, but why should that not be a part of our lives as feminists? And you see that the personal is political and it's very real that women of color face barriers for both sexism and racism. People are facing discrimination and disabled people are facing sexism and ageism, you know, and Trans people are being discriminated against. So most people who complain about this identity politics, they, they actually have a privileged identity. These are the later European American, CIS heterosexual males. They tend to say things like identity divides us. Um, when they say that's the only thing that we should organize around his class because that is a thing that we all have in common and easy for them to say because they're not, they're not the ones being affected by all of these impacts. So, you know, we do not have the exact same struggle. Sure. But we don't have to be how the exact same struggles to be on each other's sides. In fact, feminists argue that it is because of our differences that we should be night around those. You know, we all have different reasons to the capitalist and feature called system is harming us, but we can act as a solidarity with each other and have each other's back. We can use the same system that is oppressing as all you know, we see solid areas the most, one of the most important concepts coming out of, um, there's a lesson that we can learn and it's an opportunity that the Trump administration is far as I'm, you know, like what's what's learned from this, you know, why is it that those, um, privilege and power, um, are doing this? We just need to recognize that others are more, some others are much more marginalized and oppressed, you know, and realize that these communities need defending and you're not going to put aside the attacks on us for some kind of revolution that may come in the future that brings our liberation. We happen to work on these things now. It's especially true because we are pervasive. You know, they're inside of all of us. Mary, you socialize and conditioned, um, with these things and none of us escapes things like sexism or racism. You don't her, those who are oppressed, we haven't internalized of those things. So we need to be continuously working on these things as individuals in society and we can't work together for, you know, what are we going to do? Like we can't do the socialist movement if we're not able to work on these issues of personal transformation. You know, we've seen like this process and being a personal transformation as well as this whole transformation that we're going through.

Speaker 4 45:39

Right. And, you know, and I think it's important to, uh, you know, talking along those lines to really remind people that I'm working together and, and struggling together. Does it mean that everybody has to do exactly the same thing or be involved in exactly the same way? Uh, I've been seeing a lot of liberal people who are, you know, quote unquote warning about not repeating the mistakes of occupy, which they see as having, um, lacked any kind of a authority figure says as having lacked a central leadership that could, you know, discipline dissidents and unite around a single set of, of ideals. Whereas I think that completely misreads a situation that we all have our strengths and our weaknesses and so we can use our strengths to help bolster weaknesses. And other people that are struggles don't have to be exactly the same. One person might just be very good at explaining things to people. So they, they help the struggle by, you know, reaching out and helping convince some liberal who needs a sudden convincing, you know, other other people are, you know, firebrands in the street in the, and I think it's, I think like you said, it's, it's important that we, um, you know, act in solidarity with each other. But I think it's also important to push back against this liberal notion that, uh, what we have to do is follow some leadership, like some kind of vanguard party that tells the rest of us what to do and through that we're going to be so, uh, we're going to be saved, you know?

Speaker 3 47:25

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm a libertarian socialism, you know, the socialist is extremely be centralize and anti authoritarian

Speaker 2 47:32

and very multi tendency. I've noticed.

Speaker 3 47:35

Yes, we're pretty Mulvey tendency, but the are some ideologies that I don't really die with our culture like malware. Um, I would say not so much so. I mean depends, it depends on the person. But really when there was going to say in terms of what you're saying is, you know, there is no one right way to be a socialist. You know, we all come at this from, like you said, different talents, different skills, different experiences, you know, different things to give and to contribute. And I don't see like say direct action, right? Everyone doesn't have to go to a protest, you know, to be an activist. And I, I see this tendency sometimes in the moment to say, well, if you don't get off the internet and you're an armchair activist and if you're not going to protest every week, you know, you're not really what the struggle. And it's like it's extremely evilest list, you know, to see that. Because there are some people that have real limitations as to why they're not at protest or maybe coaches are not the thing, you know, I like to write. So I, a lot of what I do is right. Um, and so we shouldn't say that activism, Hustle look a certain way. We have to meet people where they're at and not be so old, like snotty and like holier than now that like we have answers, you know, when we have the one answer about how to do this the right way, like everybody has their own way to contribute and we should be happy that people are contributing, you know?

Speaker 2 49:12

Right. So, so for anybody who's listening right now, um, uh, what, what can you tell them about the things that they could or should be doing, um, either online in their neighborhoods? Um, how should people be, you know, looking to get involved in order to, you know, help promote socialism and feminism?

Speaker 3 49:35

Well, I would say look into your community and see what organizations or campaigns are going on. I mean, how fight for 15 black lives matter. Um, you know, we've got all kinds of different organizations that are, you know, you know, begging people for participation, you know, so look at women's organizations are looking at feminist organizations, you know, or then out there there's, um, there's an organization called no mas, I'm trying to remember the whole name of nomas. So it's the National Organization for men against sexism and you can find them online. They're awesome. Um, they're an activist organization and men and women supporting positive changes from men and the feminist movement. Um, so, so many different things that you could be doing. And some of the things that I say for men, um, to be looking to do is to like see power, you know, giving me your power and privilege or did you speak up? If we're going to around how, highlight them, allow them to lead, follow their lead and play a supportive role. And if there's no women around and something is said by someone, it was really, you're turning to speak up. You know, if women are under attack, you've got to stand up and fight back how our backs, you know, men are afraid to speak up and make mistakes and just like anyone else. But mistakes are part of the process. No, we just encourage people to be humble and apologize without excuse and learn from the experience, you know, but be courageous enough to try, you know, we men, we need men to do this.

Speaker 6 51:13

Yeah.

Speaker 3 51:13

You know, it's Kinda how solidarity is. Bills gotta make some mistakes. A crock of UAA has that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the non you're gonna learn and grow from the process. That's kind of what activism is about. And also like embrace empathy. We've to be compassionate to what women are saying and develop their own empathy brothers, you know, try to make, you know, do things to make women feel safer and more welcome and being cool. So, and like the main message or takeaway is that we need men to help us bring about if I'm the society and the reality is it's for all of our benefit. Um, and those are some of the things that I would really say our takeaways from this conversation. Um, you know, there are so many things that men can do that are not helpful. Um, you know, I have a huge list of them that I can go through, but like at the end of the day, um, you know, try to listen. You know, that's like the main thing is no, listen to women, no respect, what their experiences are and try to say like, how can I help, you know, what can I do to support you and make things better? For sure. Right now. And at the end of the day that those things reverberate because one moment you feel like you're on their side. I don't want to be at your side. You know, that's when we actually start to work together and we trust each other. Um, you know, that's the stuff that can make movement happen is no, the movement is going to be divided as long as you know, people aren't acting in ways that respect people. Um, you gotta respect the dignity of other people and show them that you are to be trusted, you know, by your actions.

Speaker 6 53:03

So.

Speaker 7 53:05

Cool. Cool. So what's going on? What do we have going coming up on the calendar? Yeah,

Speaker 3 53:10

well we are organizing towards meeting, um, which is named first. It's like an international workers holiday kind of thing where, you know, it's kind of like international women's Day only it's centered around workers. Um, I mean the cool thing about international men's Day, this time it was a strike, which a lot of people will try to sing. It was a privilege thing cause only privileged women or whatever. It could take the day off from work. Um, but you know, if we go back to the radical tradition of strikes are actually not a privilege thing at all, you know, were striking for our lives. You know, we're striking for better working conditions and for better wages and you know, all the things that we have now where, because we did that stuff and so it's the same kind of idea is like we took disrupt this as soon as usual on this. Could you imagine if everyone stopped working for a week capitalist would be brought to its knees because couldn't function without the lever.

Speaker 4 54:10

Right. And this was one of the things that, um, you know, I'm big on, you know, getting out there and protesting and being in the streets and being disruptive in that way. But if you don't attack the, if you, if you don't shut down the ability for the powerful to collect the fruits of their power, then they, they'll just basically wait you out. And so, uh, so I've, I've been, I've really been heartened by seeing people out in protests, but I think that, uh, it, it can't, it, it can only be effective when it is the first step in bringing together lots of people to organize, you know, more powerful events like strikes in the future.

Speaker 3 54:54

Yeah. I mean, we have to talk about like what are the strategies and tactics that we use? Longterm protests are great, but they only do so much. And so how can we bring the protest to our workplace? How can we bring the Co tests to our family? How do we bring protest? Everything we do so that we're transforming our lives and supporting each other like mutual aid, solidarity, community work. You see what these things mean? Meetings, they mean feeding pupil, they need taking care of shoulder and you know, what are the things that we could do, you know, they mean supporting education, you know, there's so many things that we could be doing, um, other than direct action. So like people who can't take the day off work, there's other things they you'd be doing. Right. You know, there's always something for people to be doing. So we need to invite people, like I said, meet them more their eyes and yes, I'm involved in things that they're passionate about and things that they are good at doing and have, you know, the time and billing you could do. No, right now the women's commission is working on some stuff, you know, we just release it and national ones, the addition of the socialist, which the women's conditioned roads. So check that out online.

Speaker 4 56:08

Cool. Uh, and I'll have the links to all that stuff in the show notes.

Speaker 3 56:12

Great. Um, many of us didn't participate in those rallies and marches on international women's Day. I'm right now the commission is working on developing an online workshop from members on socialist feminism that would be with women facilitators and male participants. We're hoping to watch that this spring. It's going to be done on zoom. Um, yeah. What conference. And we also had a big influx as you know, of your members. I'll be Trump was elected. So we're processing the welcome email your members and bringing in those fresh ideas. We're trying to work on being more inclusive. I'm nonbinary and Trans Women and since, um, and as those gender women are really trying to learn about these issues so that we could be one close. So this is something that we see as very important for our movement. We want to be like role models for the rest of our organization and others, you know, we're not above admitting when we have lack of knowledge and the things that we need to learn and get better at and improve upon. So that's something that we're working on. We also discussed maybe restarting a women's commission only publication of some kind. You use the hot one called socials women. Um, I'm in one thing I'd like to see as more women on the commission share their personal stories with men in particular that we haven't increased understanding of the diversity of women face and also why someone went and maybe come off as angry or scared, you know, um, of men in particular like 15 more minutes. Damn. That's comma women have face living in society and how they can be warm but that again, supportive towards us but also like the seen men do the same thing. Like share your stories of how he shared he has harmed you. This could really build a bridge towards feminism. You know, when we kind of see, okay, these are like, like the reasons why, you know, minimal. I'm really just need to communicate. I believe I'm in really understand like what each other is going through and that like that that empathy. It goes both ways. It's not just we're looking for men to be empathetic. Clothesline. We need women to understand kind of how future he has screwed them over. Um, and what we can do to kind of encourage men to be supportive of feminism. You know, we also are encouraging folks to join the Socialist Party USA. If these things have appealed to you, you can read our statement of principles, our website, and you agree with it. I encourage you to join us. There are also other various social organizations around the country that are worthy of checking out. Of course I'm biased, partly it's the best, but none of us was perfect. We could all stand to work on things like feminism and intersectionality. You know, these are important things for all our immunizations. Can you say I'm finally as well as externally. You know how we do this all the time in the success on the socialist movement. How solidarity between us is how we win. Moreover, and we're learning to live together with respect and dignity for all. We just can't fill who society without doing these things. You know, as much as it's, you know, we're facing conflicts between each other and we're seeing problematic behaviors. And this and that. And there's this call out culture that we're dealing with and you know, we're struggling to figure out how do we do things like restorative justice, transformative justice and conflict resolution. You know, we're all certainly with this stuff and like how do we actually support people who are different from us when, you know, we don't have an experience and we have privilege, you know, like all of us are struggling with that, but we've got to work on these things. You know, these are things that have to be worked on really hard because how can we build a society, you know, social, it's by my society, without transforming ourselves, you know, around these issues.

Speaker 4 59:50

Yeah. Yeah. I let it, I don't think we can, they have to, they have to go hand in hand it and, and, you know, going on, talking about the different organizations. Uh, I think that people shouldn't be afraid to join multiple organizations. If they, if they want to do, if they see an organization that's doing one thing that they like, but it's not doing something that they don't or it's a, it's not doing something else that they also wanted to do. Uh, I think it's great to go out and look for a different organization to, to join that does do that. If you want to join the DSA and be involved in electoral politics because he think it's important to, you know, be involved in the process to stop some of the worst things that we see coming down the pike, then I think that people should do that. But it's also, that's not to say that, you know, if you're in the DSA, that doesn't mean you can't also support, um, you know, uh, secondary non state systems of solidarity to, to build up nonstate institutions, uh, of mutual aid, you know, through a party like the Spu Isa or through some local community action group. And I think that, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's the idea of the diversity of tactics.

Speaker 3 1:01:09

You were not completely to exclusionary. We we believe in working together and socialist, you know, and, and others, um, you know, we like to do coalition building, which means we try to find people who have common interests or common aims and mutually beneficial things. And we work on campaigns together. You know, we all work with all kinds of people from all walks of life if we agree on, you know, the aim that we're all looking for. Um, and just like you said, we do believe in a diversity of tactics, which goes right back to what you said about like different things working for different people when you know, doesn't look one cookie cutter way. There is no one right way to do this. Um, you know, Socialist Party will advocate certain things like replacing the salt, a capitalist system and socialism and owning the means of production and things up, things like that work. Those are in our statement of principles and we don't really budge for most things in terms of, no, those are core to our identity. Uh, we biggest, I couldn't believe it. He cannot create the society that we need. And deserve without those things. But, um, in other ways you can support multiple things at the same time. You know, that kind of the reality of people is that we, you know, you can even be contradictory sometimes and the type of things that, you know, that we support. But, um, at the end of the day we're more allergy to move the advance, the movement forward for social justice. So

Speaker 2 1:02:41

who, is there anything else that uh, you wanted to talk about that we haven't touched on yet?

Speaker 3 1:02:47

Don't think so. I mean, I could go into more detail about like problematic behaviors that some men do that we would like for him to do differently. I mean, I don't know if that will be helpful or not, but I couldn't do it if you want me to.

Speaker 2 1:03:02

Um, yeah. Yeah. Why don't we, why don't we leave people on a, you know, a list of do's and don'ts perhaps.

Speaker 3 1:03:07

Okay. So this is some things that men do. They're not helpful, I'm saying not all men. Yes. We know that not all men are rapists or aggressively sexist or violent towards women, but that does not mean that every man does not benefit from sections. And his power and privilege as a man is still part of what going on here. So instead of men becoming defensive, when women point out the harsh realities of being a woman, that's society, you know, we're encouraging them to take responsibility for the system of sections and empty chair and work to dismantle it. Um, and other problematic thing is something we call mansplaining, which is when a man explains things to women or explain things that maybe a woman already knows or she has actually said before, um, as if he's the expert and she is the novice. Um, so it's kind of problematic. Anything that's condescending, patronizing paternalism or playing the devil's advocate, we're kind of sick of that.

Speaker 2 1:04:09

Just do not

Speaker 3 1:04:11

how, you know, um, uh, that it's just problematic. It just goes against what we're trying to do. So kind of think about that. They're like, how that's affecting us in sucking energy out of us when, you know, we could be working together. Um, another one is derailing, which is bringing up other topics to derail the conversation. Putting the spotlight back on men instead of women. Um, really thought it was a tactic used to, you know, dismiss. Um, also talking over us, talking too much. You taking up all the room. We have men have a tendency to use no privilege to talk over women or take up too much of the time. Um, so hand over the mic, give a woman a platform, you know, you know, encouraged women, my horn not talking to give their opinion cause they just might feel intimidated. Um, also try not to be dismissive, so saying things are not as bad as you say or this county woman's perspective. You're not believing. When I, when they say things are bad with them is a problem. We may just come from the facts. It was plain as day that women are disproportionately impacted by things like sexism and violence. One in three women are sexually assaulted or sexually abused. And for men that numbers one in six women make less money than men do for the same jobs. And if you're, we'll know colleagues even worse, he kind of a numbers are just easily accessible and available to be researched that beyond the cold, cold hard numbers, you know, men should I believe our experiences and instead of being suspicious or skeptical when we talk about how bad things are mean lender stop thinking for instance, that women are often accusing them of rape falsely. This is highly where a highly unlikely, you know, most reported rates uses actually did happen. And think about all the ones that aren't even reported. It would be astronomical. You know, consent is very important. It should be taught to everyone what consent looks like, that no one is entitled to sex. Um, and women don't own men. Anything we understand though that sexual assault is rooted empower as feminists, we suggest to say you were powers equalize so that things like this to not happen. And we do understand that men are also being raped. You know, we, we don't think that rape is just something that happens to women. Um, it just happens to women more often and the person, but usually the person raping a woman isn't an end. Like it's like, like 90 or more percent of the time. Um, so and everything is asking women to toughen up or grow thick or thin if they want to be involved in politics. Actually we think we need more compassion, empathy and emotional sensitivity and politics and life in general. Um, you know, and it was the last one is just rejecting the label feminists or feminist for the label egalitarian or few minutes or some other word just because it seems like, um, feminist comes from the word feminine, you know, we want men to embrace feminism and call themselves feminists. Um, that's really what we aim for. But at the very least we want people to identify as pro feminism and what's wrong with the phone is feminine. Anyway,

Speaker 2 1:07:40

that last part, um, I think it is a, actually a bigger deal than, than most other people would, would think of at first blush because by rejecting the label feminism, which you're saying is that you are a, you are distancing and rejecting yourself from the, the history and the struggle of feminism, which has always been about gender equality. And it's, it's only taking the label of feminism because, uh, it has been traditionally women who been disproportionately disadvantaged in society. And so it's important for gender equality to bring women up to where men are. And, and I think that by, you know, saying, Oh, I'm not a feminist. I'm an egalitarian. It is a, it is a rejection in a way of the history and, uh, and the struggle.

Speaker 3 1:08:38

Yeah. Also, we think that some phobia is, um, a big problem and transmisogyny and so most things are rooted in the idea that there's something wrong with being feminine. Um, and then can also be feminine too. Right. So it's um, you know, when you see that some people are thinking, you know, what feminism really is, is for men to be able to ask like, or for women to be able to act like men, it's just like, well, no, I mean women don't want toxic masculinity or hyper masculinity. You know, we don't, we don't think about stuff on mine either.

Speaker 2 1:09:15

Right. It right. It can't be, it can't, it can't be about turning men into women or women into men. It's, it's free both in anybody who is not a part of that binary to just express themselves as individuals without having to worry about fitting into some rigid societal mold that doesn't have room for your own personality.

Speaker 3 1:09:37

Yeah. And also we don't, we want to make sure that people know that we're not putting down masculine or feminine, but both of those things are perfectly fine the way they are and that, you know, being feminine or being masculine is not problem. Um, so we're not looking to take those things away from people. When you think that, that those things are fine as they are, it's just the hyper part. Or be the idea that you have to be strictly that or that there's some kind of confined to those things. Right? There are no real, the only confines that they have social consequences that people put on people when they, they act those ways. And so we're trying to get rid of the social consequences so that people can be free.

Speaker 2 1:10:26

Would a, it's been a, it's been a really informative interview and I really want to thank you for coming on and sharing your knowledge with us.

Speaker 3 1:10:34

You're welcome. I just encourage people to do more research on your own. There are books about these things. There's youtube videos, there's websites, you know, there's so much time worrying about them and those almond socialism, um, it's taken me 17 years to learn what I know now. And you know, we all start off not knowing much. Um, but that's okay. You know, I encourage people to keep being curious and discovering more. And you've talking to different people, you know, from all walks of life because that's really, you're learning from other people's experiences and knowledge is the most important way that you learn.

Speaker 2 1:11:12

Okay. Right. Thank you.

Speaker 8 1:11:14

You're welcome.

Speaker 9 1:11:18

Oh, right. And we're back. Yeah. So that was, I was just really floored by how, how well she, she came prepared for that interview. Um, and I kind of want to get, because you weren't able to be a part of the interview because it prior commitments, I kind of want to get sort of your take on what you thought of it.

Speaker 8 1:11:42

I was, yeah, I was amazed too. She sounds like a great organizer. Um, I think it would be amazing to keep, you know, some channels of communication open. Maybe you have her present her, uh, experiences organizing to some local groups and um, the inspirational there. Maybe we could even convince her to move north.

Speaker 9 1:12:07

Yeah. If only, I mean, I love living up up here in the North Bay, but you gotta admit it's kind of out in the sticks.

Speaker 8 1:12:15

Oh yeah. Not a lot of opportunity. Maybe. So. I mean, some of the things that are really worth considering that from what Tina said are, you know, she's got some amazing takes on, uh, on feminism. Um, and she talked about, uh, you know, toxic and false masculinity. And what I was inspired to think about from that is, you know, how can we view our traditional masculine and feminine roles and more of a positive light and use some of the traditions that we've had throughout history, um, in terms of feminine and masculine roles in a positive way. That's, you know, that's very, really, uh, helpful and to think about, well, of course, you know, not tying them to who has to take what roles, right? So it's not to say that men can't be feminine and women can't be masculine or whatever.

Speaker 9 1:13:18

Right. And, and I think that, um, I really liked the way that she sort of pulled that together and sort of tore down the, the dichotomy between the two where it is, uh, it is not enough to say that, uh, it isn't enough to say that you, you have to be a part of this, um, you know, masculine culture or that you have to subvert your own masculinity or subvert your own sort of identity and take on the identity of the feminine. It's, it's that you have to, as, as a feminist, you, you have to be open to sort of combining the two and, and just sort of realizing that the distinction, the most of the distinctions that we make between the masculine and the feminine are, are Social Constructs that are really, um, uh, sort of built up over time in the culture to sort of divide us into, um, like labor classes. And, and I, I think that this is a really big part of, uh, why she, both she and I feel that you can't have, uh, a liberatory feminism unless you have that a socialist and that libertarian critique, uh, that goes along with it. Because then once you start doing is you start sort of a chopping up people into these, these highly specialized categories of identity and, and, and you sort of fail to maintain a way of, uh, analyzing those identities so that we can understand how one is more privileged or one is more oppressed and then figure out a way that we can move the culture forward so that neither are privileged or oppressed. It is more egalitarian.

Speaker 8 1:15:21

Oh yeah. So, I mean, I guess what I was trying to get at is, um, if we, if we focus on the really positive ways you see the feminine and masculine throughout our history and traditions and you know, then, I mean, this is something that I would want all of these qualities, right? The positive things that we attribute to feminine and the positive things that we attribute to masculine. I want to mix and match and take all of those that I possibly can.

Speaker 9 1:15:50

Ah, I see what you mean. Sort of like, right. Taking, taking the best of each of these traditionally dichotomist identities and saying, how can I merge these together to myself, be a more holistic and complete person.

Speaker 8 1:16:05

Absolutely. And to your point about, uh, you know, the, the role of, um, so the hyper masculinity is what Tina called it, which I think is a great term, um, in our economic lives is if you think about, you know, capitalism and our competitive model, it is completely that version of stereotypical toxic hypermasculinity. Uh, that's how we've decided to run our whole world. And you know, I think anarchist like to, um, make the, uh, black to say that these things are not inseparable, right? That the, the economic class and, um, uh, misogyny, you know, the oppression of women is, is not, they aren't things that you can just address one at a time. They're there been, you know, the totally inter bound, um, with each other. And I think that's a good example of it. It's like, how can you get rid of capitalism without attacking, uh, the, without being a ultra feminist because the tech capitalism itself is such a masculine, hyper masculine model of dominant.

Speaker 9 1:17:18

No, I think that, I mean, God, we could have, I think we could've kept going on the interview and just talking about this for like literally hours. We got to, we got to the end of an hour in the interview when it was just like, wow, there's just so much here that we can just keep going. But I, and I think that I definitely want to have her back on the show, uh, either as a co host or a guest again to talk about these issues. Um, because I think that big part of the reason why there was this huge push in this splitting of the labor between the sexes is that the child rearing is a net loss unproductive investment. If you are, if you actually own a farm in and are working at in a capitalist sense, it actually requires more resources, time and capital to have your own kids to work that farm, then it is to just hire some, an adult to work that farm for you. So child rearing is a societaly necessary thing that has to happen, but it is also an inefficiency in the capitalist system. So in order to, in order to have a permanent class of people who are going to be, um, involved in the child rearing while also not taking up, uh, the productive, a capitalistic Lee valuable time of the Labor class, you have to force women into a subservient position where they are barred from participation in wage labor so that they're unpaid labor goes towards keeping the society going. And I think this is it, this is a, this, this is a concept that, you know, I've, I've seen in other places and, and I'd like to see, uh, I'd like to find more sources of analysis on this. And, and I think the head, she would be able to speak more knowledgeably about this idea then I could. But I think it's, I think it's, you know, something that should be kept in mind when we're looking at the different roles for men and women under capitalism.

Speaker 8 1:19:44

Yeah, definitely. So that, I mean, that goes back to when we abolished a child labor, uh, you know, in the 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds, uh, how was that really for the benefit of the children or we see us capitalism, see another opportunity there. It goes to, you know, the Richard Wolf has talked quite a bit about the fact that, you know, we've kind of leveled off wage earning, right? But, but our productivity continues to grow and, um, it's kind of a symptom of the capitalist model that we're, we're trying to suck as much out of people as we possibly can. And part of that has been encouraging people to go into tremendous debt. Uh, you know, having one women enter the workforce in huge numbers. And what's the third one that he talks about anyway? You know, we're kind of running out of these buffers of how much more productivity can we suck out of people, uh, and, and it's kind of a conflict there and that, what do you, you know, do you want women to work full time or do you want them to, uh, you know, raise the children on rewarded for that or both? I mean, we kind of expect them to just do both magically. Right,

Speaker 9 1:21:01

right. Which is, you know, why we definitely need a, you know, a liberatory and revolutionary movement to move us past the, the current system, which I think brings those to the sort of final topic of the evening, which is what's been going on, uh, in the here and now. So, uh, you were recently at the, uh, trans, uh, support March, I think it was. Can you, uh, can you speak to, you know, what was going on there? What was, what it was about?

Speaker 8 1:21:34

So first off, uh, a week prior, um, there was the International Woman's Day. And, uh, so I've been organizing with the, uh, uh, community action coalition locally. And, uh, we planned a rally in support of planned parenthood that day. Uh, and kind of in the local group. We had gotten someone, uh, who, who accidentally came into our meetings and it turned out to be a transgender, uh, exclusionary radical feminist, um, and kind of made a mess there before we asked her to move along. And, uh, so anyway, that's, it inspired us to, uh, make that another big focus. I think we were considering it anyway, but another big focus of our international women's Day rally. So we went up on the, uh, on the overpass over 101, they're in downtown Santa Rosa and we put up signs, we all, we held signs up and we, uh, and someone put in a bunch of Styrofoam cups and the chain link fence spelled out resist. And we got a bunch of positive hawk, some waves and everything. Even one of the Santa Rosa City Police, uh, give us a thumbs up. I think it was that, you know, a few people who express negative opinions, but that was, that was very few and far between. So a, and then we got her ass, a couple of cops on motorcycles up and told us that we couldn't a fixed signs when we show that they weren't a fixed. So they said, oh, well you can't even stand here with the signs. You have to be moving otherwise you're waitering. Uh, but we, we, we support the messages that you're giving. No worries. You know, we don't have a problem with that.

Speaker 9 1:23:20

I, yeah, it's, it's the, it's the funny thing about, um, uh, the, the liberal notion of free speech in the modern age is that it's, it's fine to hold whatever opinion you want, but just do it on your own time and don't bother the rest of us with it.

Speaker 8 1:23:37

Don't take up too much space. So anyway, that was a, that was a good weed up. And then, yes, yesterday I went to the Trans Youth March and that was a great experience. Um, you know, they had some really brave and great speakers and leaders, uh, there. And so we marched around center of downtown center as a few times, uh, say, you know, our transgender community is not going to be silent. Uh, we're powerful. We're, we're here to stay. And, uh, you know, everyone else is showing that we're giving a trans folk tremendous support and we won't stand for them being, uh, you know, oppressed and marginalized, especially by our current administration.

Speaker 9 1:24:22

Well, that's good. Yeah. I think that, you know, showing even, even just a display of solidarity, even without going so far as to provide a physical aid can go a long way towards helping oppressed communities feel a welcome and more comfortable and allow them to get involved and express themselves in a way that they might have not felt comfortable doing with before. In my opinion. You know, as a cisgendered straight white passing male, I really think that what we need to have, um, in a lot of these different movements, uh, we have to, uh, provide a sort of core and, and buffer for them against the, the real anger and hateful reaction that some in the broader community will have. And, and we need to put, put ourselves as a buffer between us and them so that they can stand up and feel comfortable expressing themselves and fighting back. So it has not just on us to liberate other people. Uh, it has, it has on us to provide, use our privileged position to provide, um, oppressed people, the tools to liberate themselves.

Speaker 8 1:25:46

Sure, sure. Like Tina said, um, you know, have their backs, you know, don't, when, when you see, when you see them being attacked, you know, stand up to that, but absolutely support them having a full voice and listen very carefully to the things they're saying. I was, I was really impressed by, uh, I mean, you know, I was already kind of conscious of it, but it really brought out yesterday, uh, when, um, some speakers talked about bathrooms. It's like, I think it's, I think it's such a great example of privilege that we just don't, aren't even aware of most of the time. Um, you know, it's like most, most of us have the privilege of using a bathroom. We don't think about it. It's not like, you know, maybe in rare circumstances when we're taking a long trip or we're out camping in the woods or something like that, we might think about bathroom access. But most of the time we just take it for granted that anywhere we go, we can go use the bathroom. Um, and you know, that's a really concrete example of how privilege really harshly affects people and that we just aren't aware of it because we're so, uh, just conditioned to this being a part of our everyday lives. Uh, and in a way that, that a lot of the, the privilege around race and gender and class, you know, often it just, there they're kind of abstract and they're hard to really put out there as an example to show people these, these ideas and that one is just, it's concrete.

Speaker 9 1:27:20

Right. And you know, obviously it can't stop at just, you know, standing up and saying, yeah, we support you. I mean, there has to be actual action to back that up, which is why I'm, I'm really excited about the upcoming May Day and climate action march, which is a huge event that uh, both you and I are involved in facilitating and organizing, you know, it bringing in all of these different interests and groups and really trying to create a coalition of people in recognition that, you know, solidarity with, with one necessarily implies solidarity with all. So, uh, if you want to sort of give a brief overview on, on what we're doing for that, uh, for that March,

Speaker 8 1:28:11

great. The focus of that I think reminds me of one of the term of the tuna used that I found really inspiring and I'm going to start trying to use it a lot as full human expression. Uh, and so the El Pueblo Unido people's March, uh, is really meant to build coalitions between local groups and activists. Um, so that we can, uh, one have a great, huge public showing here for mayday. And for the, the acquirement March Day, which was April 29th, that's when we decided to have it rather than it May 1st, um, and use it to build a coalition going forward. A coalition of people concerned about all of these notions of economic and social and climate justice. So there's dozens of local groups getting involved, uh, expect it to be a huge showing like the, uh, you know, uh, was it February 21st women's March, uh, and to show really strongly that it's inclusive of all of these concerns and issues and groups. So I'm excited about it. It's going to be big a. And then there's also on April 2nd, there's a United farm workers, Cesar, Cesar Chavez. March. So that was a really positive one. I think that will have a lot of bearing on immigration, um, and on labor, uh, labor rights and things like that. So there's two big upcoming events,

Speaker 9 1:29:36

right? And you know, I can hear some of our listeners already saying, well, if you're going to have a May Day rally, why don't you hold it on May Day? There's, there's already a lot of, you know, strikes and organizing planned around May Day, you know, around worker and labor rights. So why aren't we doing this? Uh, on May 1st, why are we doing an April 29th? And, and I think the biggest reason is that for one, there is the, uh, the climate march happening in DC where a bunch of scientists are, are going to the Capitol to say, uh, what you are doing with your politics is inherently anti intellectual, anti scientific, and in fact is going to get the world killed. You know, so, so there's, there's solidarity with that. But this event isn't really a strike. This event is an organizational rally. Um, and the organizing behind this March and rally isn't going to stop on April 29th. Uh, if, if all we'd have is, you know, 6,000 people marching in Santa Rosa and nothing comes out of it afterwards, I think, I think all of us would see it as kind of a failure. Really the point of this is to have a, a way of bringing in a lot of, you know, what people would think of as very disparate, unconnected groups together and allow them to meet and organize in a way that really makes clear, um, our struggles are connected. The, the struggle for immigrant immigrant rights is also the struggle for labor rights is also the struggle for gender equality, which is also the struggle for and so on and so on. These are all, these are all related. These are all interconnected. So this, this March is a way for us to get together and to really talk about how we can start seeing ourselves not as disparate interest groups, but as a United people who are fighting for our right to exist in a, that isn't inherently oppressive.

Speaker 8 1:32:01

Yeah, I was, Tina said, you know, these protests are a way to bring people together, uh, in order to build strength for, for, you know, ratable actions like strikes. You know, the, the, I think a common thing that theme in our discussion lately has been how do you get to a strike? You know, people were, people were, they feel isolated. They feel alone. If they walk out of their work, they're going to get fired. And that's the end of the story. Uh, how do, how do we build this thing to the point where we can really go on a general strike? I think there've been a couple of calls for general strikes within the last couple of months and you know, some people left their work, some people went out and rallies on people, but it's like, uh, it's, you know, we know how powerful a strike can be. If everyone in the u s stopped working, the machine would, would come to a grinding halt and we'd have enormous power. But it's not like that right now. We just can't, we feel too isolated to alone too. Uh, too vulnerable.

Speaker 9 1:33:02

Yeah. And, and you know, the, we really need to sort of break through the propaganda that we had been fed over the last, over the last, you know, 50, 60 years that we had been living under a regime of really intensive capitalist propaganda coming out of these advertising firms that not only are propagandizing, you know, specific commodities or companies, but also just the, the basic ideology of capitalism itself. You know, it's, it's baked into all of the media. It's, it's permeated the education, it's inherent and the governance structures of our society. And so, um, a big part of what we need to do as, as people who hold a more radical stance, a, a more raw, a egalitarian view of society is, is that we have to overcome this notion that people are atomized individuals and not part of a broader collective where the benefits to the group aren't, don't come at the expense of the individual and the benefits of the two. The individual aren't coming at the expense of the group there, there has to be a unity between the two. We have to build up each other as individuals. So that together we are strong and only when, when all of us are strong, that we are individually strong ourselves.

Speaker 8 1:34:41

Yeah. So the, along the lines of propaganda, as you said earlier, uh, you know, Bernie did us a service and getting people to think about the word socialism in a more positive way, uh, when the last hundred or so years has been really negative about it and propagandize against it. Uh, and I'd like to, we need to take back other words to, uh, you know, this, I think we could have a whole discussion about this, but it's, it's I think important to point out, oh, that may day, um, is really was inspired by the Haymaker Hay market affair, uh, in which anarchists were falsely arrested and accused of throwing bombs. Uh, and some of them were hung, one of them committed suicide and eventually a few of them were, uh, were released and the charges were dismissed. But, uh, that's what spurned our idea of anarchists being, you know, chaotic instigators of mayhem and bomb throwing, you know, terrorists.

Speaker 5 1:35:43

Okay.

Speaker 9 1:35:43

Yeah. And the history of May Day, uh, from, you know, back at the, the hay market affair up through, you know, the current era, uh, you know, passing through the 2006, uh, immigrant marches on May Day and, and the immigrant labor struggle. Uh, these are actually all things that we are going to be talking about in a public forum that we're organizing on the evening of April the 19th up here in Santa Rosa. So we're going to have a panel of three speakers with a host that is going to be recorded, uh, and, and released online. But the more people that we can get there to participate in person and to ask questions and to sort of engage in, in a communal learning process, I think is the, the better the form is going to go. But a lot of people don't know these, the history of this struggle. And so one of the things that myself and a member of the FCIU local that we think is really important is to really explain why the history of the labor movement is so important to understanding where we are today as well as how we move forward going into the future. So I think that anybody who is in the North Bay area, uh, definitely mark your calendar is down, uh, April 19th. It should kick off at about five 30 in the evening and you should go for about two hours. It's going to be a really a really interesting and a really good sort of deep dive into the past of May Day and how that informs our current place in the world.

Speaker 8 1:37:33

Excellent. Glad to hear it. Uh, do you, can you recommend any place for folks to go and look for these, uh, events and find, uh, you know, upcoming things?

Speaker 9 1:37:45

Um, unfortunately I can't tell you specifically where to look for these. Part of the reason why I was involved in I'm organizing this particular forum was because I didn't see anything happening, um, within our local area. So I think, you know, I think that this is a, this is as, as much as much as it is letting people know about this specific event. Uh, this is as much a call for other people to get in contact with us and, and get in contact with, uh, other people who are interested in, in spreading the awareness of these events. Like it's going down.org, uh, to really promote these local events because it's, it's, it's well and good to have these sort of really broad national events, these, these televised events that like Bernie Sanders is doing. That's good. Uh, but we can't let that be it. Um, a lot of these things have to be going on at the local level and a lot of this organization can't be done if it's not done at the local level. So if, if you guys out there, um, want to give us some information on what's going on in your local area, if you guys want to come on and, uh, uh, come on the show and give us a rundown on what you're doing, um, what you see happening locally. Shoot us an email or a private message. Uh, all the contact information is going to be on the description for this episode, but the email address is left coast podcast@gmail.com. Uh, you can find the show notes@soundclouddotcomslashleftcoasthardcastandwearealsoonredditatreddit.com slash r slash left coast. Um, yeah, I think that's pretty much it for what's going on here. Um, there's a, a couple other, uh, important news items that I think that we should cover, like the, uh, the, the work that is going on, getting the California 12 out of prison. Uh, but I th I don't think we have enough time right now to really do that justice. So I, I think, I think that this is a topic that we can expound upon further in terms of not just news but actual organizing and activism. So I think we can cover that at a later date. Uh, but did you have anything else that, uh, he wanted to tell the people I know, just get out there and be strong and a challenge authority. So that's it for the left coast media, podcasts going piece and get solidarity. You know what, I'm just going to keep it.