Left Coast Media
Left Coast Media
Wherein Theory Meets Its Counterpart
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
For the 17th of June, 2017. Welcome to the left coast. This is the left coast podcast bringing you, I dunno, news analysis. We're going to get to some of that today, but we have, uh, someone who is hopefully going to be a, uh, either regular guest or a continuing cohost, one of our, a fearless local leaders of the DSA here. Uh, she goes by at communal communal sauce, communal sauce on Twitter. Yeah. So, um, uh, for those who don't know, uh, I am Tiberius Caracas. We are both up here in the North Bay of California. Um, why don't you just go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience.
Speaker 2Okay. My name is sauce, communal sauce on Twitter. Uh, I am a communalist. I am a leftist. I'm originally not from America. Um, the accident kind of gives it away. The accident does give it away. I, I am, I'm gonna say out at the start. I am incredibly privileged, you know, I'm, I'm white, I pass as straight or that sort of stuff. So I, I do try and reflect on that in my leftism. But, um, and I'm not a theory person, so in contrast to Tiberius, his won't heaviness, I come politics from, from more of a, I suppose you'd say a moral standpoint like this makes my conscience feel bad sort of standpoint. So I don't have, you know, I don't have quotes to back up my stuff.
Speaker 1Yeah. You're not as big of a Dork as me. I'm a Dork in different ways. Yeah. Well I mean it could be worse. I could be mad. Inglesias yeah. So just go ahead and, um, you know, sort of tell us where you're coming from. Um, maybe give us a quick overview of what we've been doing up here with the DSA. Um, yeah, just let us know what's, uh, what's happening in the world right now.
Speaker 2Well, exciting news for the North Bay is the North Bay. DSA local has our first meeting. It's our June meeting. It's on Monday, June 26th, starting at 6:30 PM, uh, at Mary's Pizza Shack in Santa Rosa. And the address for that. I do not have immediately in front of me, but I can pull it up because I didn't prepare very well.
Speaker 1That's fine. We'll also link to anything. We'd talk about what we'll link to it and including, um, uh, the Facebook page for this.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a six 15 fourth street Santa Rosa. There is a meeting room in there and we will be, we'll be meeting there. I'm going to have simultaneous translation. So if you are a, if you prefer to listen in Spanish or participate in Spanish, we'll have that available and kids are welcome. I'm, I'm really excited to get a DSA local going up here. Um, I know that some of my comrades are as well because the north Bay is, is different from San Francisco, is different from Oakland is different from Sacramento and the hope is that we can, we can focus on stuff that is unique to the North Bay area.
Speaker 1Yeah. We, we have, you know, we're very closely connected to the bay area or the, the greater bay area obviously, but up here we're very rural and um, you know, the, the kind of, uh, issues that tend to pop up with that, you know, are different from the kind of issues that you would see in a more urban setting like Oakland. Um, you know, we have a lot of agriculture up here, a lot of vineyards, that kind of stuff. We have much more spread out, um, uh, much more sprawling kind of cities and stuff like that. So, you know, issues of public transportation are, are, um, always present. Um, yeah. So give us a, give us a rundown on sort of a, like how you got to this point. You said that your, you're sort of a moral socialistic. You come at this from, you know, uh, uh, an angle of, of justice and morality. Um, tell us what that means for you.
Speaker 2Well, I would describe my ideology is being, I, I want everybody to be happy. I want everybody to have everything they need and for everybody to not be a dick to each other. And then realistically within what's going on today or going on right now, I have this sense that the help that we as humans need to do that is not going to be coming from the state, that we will have to build our own instructors to handle that. And I basically went to a common rate and said, this is what I think, what ideology Am I? And they said, well, you sound kind of like a commune or list. And then I googled Murray Book Chin, which very many people should do.
Speaker 1Everybody should Google Marbach 10 in fact, even if you know about Mary books and go Google him right now, just to make sure that he gets on those Google rankings. You know,
Speaker 2also,
Speaker 3you know, hearing about Rojava Java and when this big grand grandma now came back, I'm hearing more about that kind of has led me into into this sense that
Speaker 2democratic and federalism or communism or something along those lines. Maybe where we need to go to make sure that we can survive. What's, what's happening.
Speaker 1Decentralized self governance, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. And just on a, I suppose political note being a libertarian socialist being anarchist in nature and being involved with the DSA, I do get people coming and saying, you know, that when the revolution comes the second up against the wall or the anarchists, you know, that they are just going to fleece you. And I pushed back against that by saying that, you know, chapters,
Speaker 3uh,
Speaker 2decided based on what chapter membership are interested in that national Dsu, some requirements, but within that you're kind of free to do as you as you need to. Um, and so my hope is that just as every chapter, every local has its own kind of flavor that northbay can have a, a commoner list flavor, a libertarian bent. Yeah. The good kind of libertarian,
Speaker 1the actual libertarian. Yes. Not The wrong libertarian, the left libertarian.
Speaker 2I've become one of those people who, well actually in reply to Facebook posts about Libertarians, same, well, yes actually those are libertarians on the right, but did you know that we had the word first and slowly I can tell people are beginning to just hit that ignore button.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, once you, once you started getting off the beaten path of mainstream politics, um, you can start sounding real preacher real quick. I know that much. Um, I, I was, uh, speaking with my, uh, my dad and one of our, one of our friends and uh, sort of got into it with them over really over the nature of like capitalism and uh, if giving things to people makes them lazy. Spoiler alert. No it doesn't. But yeah. So, so I know what that's, I know what that's like.
Speaker 2Yeah. I, I think that by not having quotes and not having readings to backup what I'm saying, that reduces the chances that I'm going to get into one of those arguments because I know that in an argument to authority, I do not have anything to, to come back with. So I try and stay in my lane. Um, I, my, my dialectical approach is mainly means, which seems to be working well so far, but we do need a, uh, a well balanced approach. So yeah.
Speaker 1Well, I mean the theory is good and all, but we can't forget that, you know, the, the Libertarians and anarchists in American history, they didn't leave behind a lot of theory because they didn't need to. I mean, they're basically, you know, out there and I'm practicing a nonhierarchical decentralized self governance and you know, they were, they were living it. They didn't have to, you know, sit down and say, all right, well I'm going to theorize some perfect utopia. They're like, no, we're just, we're just going to be, you know, better than the current system. We're going to do things in a way that is more just and equitable for society. So you don't have to have the theory. But I mean, if your brain is broken like me, you kind of want it. But
Speaker 2it's also, I think a component of why the online discourse or the Twitter discourse is, it's really bad folks. It's, it's bad because the people that get most vocal on Twitter, uh, generally those who are not out doing stuff, I think it was a calm Darby from Dsa, MSF who was saying, knowing that I'm going to see these people in real life at a meeting means that I am much, there's a, there's a willingness to assume good faith rather than immediately what she didn't to paraphrase, to immediately jump to thinking that somebody has a ship fucker. Like I tried to avoid doing that because I know in my heart of hearts or people are innately good, but sometimes you read someone's tweet and you think, oh my God, what a Shit fucker. Yeah. On the other hand, if that tweet is attached to somebody that you know you're going to be seeing tomorrow or you saw last week at a meeting, you're less likely to have that fundamental attribution error. And instead of attributing it to them being a bad person, attributed it to, well, maybe they're having a bad day. And I think in person organizing and praxis and that sort of stuff really can help. Not only help us understand each other, but counteract some of the, the alienation and, you know, putting the social back in socialism, like we, like we did the other weekend.
Speaker 1Yeah. That was a, it was a really good barbecue with 'em.
Speaker 2We had married Virginia, our mentor from Eastbay. Um, we also had a, I think s six or seven other comrades, but I don't know if it's okay to mention names, but six or seven other comrades. And we devised some plans for our first meeting and talk more about what the future is going to down to hold for.
Speaker 4Okay.
Speaker 2North Bay. It's all very exciting.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um, and it's really actually very cool that we have an actual socialist organization in the North Bay. Uh, and I'm very happy that someone else managed to, you know, step in and say, I'm going to start this because, uh, I know I'm bad at that. Um, yeah, I think we were talking a off the air about, um, you know, sort of how we got to be in a position where we are, you know, doing actual activism and organizing and that kind of stuff. And, and I think the big joke was that we, we are activists and organizers because we failed to not be okay.
Speaker 2Yeah. The, the skills that, that I brought or the reasons that I am an organizer are, um, one, I was the first person in the area to be like, I'm so fed up about this and I'm going to do something about it. And two, I was so naive that I didn't know it couldn't be done. Um, I know there's a book chain of quote about that, but you know, I,
Speaker 4okay.
Speaker 2Wild eyed and full of naivete was like this is definitely possible. I'm definitely going to do it. And so far and what we're doing it.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Cause we're too stupid to know we can't.
Speaker 2Exactly. Yeah. And I know you referred to me as kind of a leader, but I'm really trying to push back away from that because we are trying to function in a somewhat nonhierarchical fashion. Like my skills may involve paperwork and being the person who emails and says, Hey, remember we're doing this. And other comrades is skills, maybe cooking, baking really awesome bread and doing tabling. And others may have skills that involve just talking on a microphone for hours on end.
Speaker 1Hmm. Hmm. I wonder,
Speaker 2yeah, we could all be leaders
Speaker 4or
Speaker 2well, whatever in our own, in our own areas.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's the, um, the idea that in the matter of boot making, you refer to the boot maker, you know? Uh, yeah. So, uh, so what exactly are we doing at the DSA then
Speaker 2and in general or locally?
Speaker 1Um, well, let's start with locally. Um, I did, I do have some questions and some concerns maybe about a DSA national, um, and sort of DSA as a broader organization. But let's talk about what's going on. Dsa, local, uh, north Bay area.
Speaker 2DSA local in the North Bay area has two or three main things that we're focusing on. One is SB five, six, two. That's the healthy California act. Um, I had a celebration yesterday because it passed the Senate. Even, uh, Bill Dodd who is state senator for Napa at the very last moment. He, we squeaked in with a yes vote from him and I honestly had given up hope on his voting for it. So I was, I had to double and triple check to make sure that I'd actually seen what I'd seen. Um, for SB five, six, two. Now it's going to be in the assembly and we're going to be focusing on canvassing, letting people know more details about the bill and uh, getting people willing to contact their representatives to support, support the bill and say, you know, get back, get behind this healthcare is a human right. The second, the second thing that we are working on is supporting the community action coalition in their campaign to recall sheriff radius, uh, for a multitude of reasons, including his promoting the man who shot Andy Lopez and his being in using our counties monies to jet off to Washington DC to party with Jeff sessions. And we're paying out like half a million or a million a year just in lawsuits for use of force and prison issues. This, there's many reasons, but that's, that's more locally focused because that is just the county of Sonoma. UH, North Bay chapter covers four counties. So SB five, six, two is something that we're recovering in all four counties. And then as we grow in membership will also grow in things that we want to target, things that we want to look at. Like I personally want to have a socialist feminist committee or circle or however we organize it. But I know that right now that's not a priority for such a small oce organizing committee. Um, and I know that you have things that you would want to have a chapter circle looking at that right now with we're so small that we just have to focus on one, two things and growing bigger.
Speaker 1I think one of the other things that I was talking to some of the other members of the Socialist Party USA specifically, uh, over on the East Bay, uh, about, you know, really trying to, uh, pick up with the sort of left unity. Again, trying to make sure that, uh, regardless of our particular tendencies, even if we may not want to have other people who have a tendency that is perhaps not as compatible with ours, uh, in the same organization, that, that, that doesn't mean that we need to, that, that we need, you know, wall each other off from, from working to end, uh, the, the capital system and bring about something better than that. So I know, I know that that's, you know, another important issue.
Speaker 2Yeah. DSA being a big tent, uh, means that I hope that we can incorporate it comrades who are interested in joining DSA from all parts of the lesson. But I also am fully aware that there are groups, there are people who are in groups that they, they love their groups. They want to stay in their groups, but maybe we can work together.
Speaker 1Yeah. For example, um, we are in the Socialist Party very strongly committed to anti-authoritarianism, which means that certain certain tendencies of, um, more traditional socialism are and to really as welcome. So, um, but yeah, that doesn't mean that you, even if, uh, even if they, they are following those kind of tendencies, um, because we are not as broad a movement as, as we would like to be yet, um, there are certainly a lot of need to, to still work together. Um, and I think that kind of a rolls us into talking about a DSA regionally and nationally. Um, I think the first concern that I have is that traditionally the DSA is really the, the leftish wing of the Democratic Party. Uh, sort of, uh, it's the, it's the party within a party. They like unions, but they still vote Democrat. Um, yeah. So, so let, let's talk about that and, and what the, the massive upsurge in membership and new membership means for the DSA nationally and it's relationship to the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2Well, I personally am still registered as a Democrat, but I didn't vote Democrat and I'm unlikely to, um, anytime soon.
Speaker 1Quick note on that. Um, I actually think, I haven't checked it recently. I actually think I'm still registered as a Republican pitching. I mean there's, there's a log and sorted history there, but um, yeah, I don't tend to take a, the official party registration is really indicative of much of anything because most people that I know, uh, even if they are like even if they're, you know, registered libertarian, they might still vote Democrat. Um, but yeah, he's a good kind of libertarian. Yeah, exactly. It might be good kind of libertarian like us
Speaker 2on, on a local level, democrats in California has been doing some small progressive things. So I personally am okay with throwing myself behind a Democrat who is doing quote unquote good. But as an organization, especially nationally, I feel like this is not, the NSA is unlikely to be as DNC as it was. Just the huge amount of people that came to DSA either from Bernie or in November. And so many of us joined because we were so pissed off at the Democrats and every time the DNC does something unbelievably stupid, we get more members LLC. So I feel like that is part of the reason why Dsa, I see us shifting a way from being endorsing them Democrats. There is a national political committee or an endorsement committee that is just been set up that is going to be looking at DSA endorsements in more detail and, and setting kind of guidelines for who can be endorsed and requirements for that. But I think the days of the DSA saying, sure, they've, they're Democrat, we support them are long gone.
Speaker 1I think that's something that is both good to hear and uh, I think can maybe put some other comrades minds at ease a little bit about working with the DSA, um, or you know, perhaps to joining the DSA if, if that's your, if that's your thing. Um,
Speaker 2we have convention coming up in August and that too, that'll be the first convention since the huge growth in members. And I have the feeling that there's going to be a lot of change coming from that convention. There's going to be a lot of things discussed because previously DSA was tiny and what it said didn't matter.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and I, uh, I noticed on, on Twitter you were, uh, having a back, a little bit of a back and forth chat with someone from, uh, the DSA about specifically, um,
Speaker 2sort of the spring platform.
Speaker 1Yeah. This, the spring platform. And, and uh, why don't you tell us about some of the concerns that you had about that and
Speaker 2well, the uh, DSA spring platform is something that comrades Larry website, Jeremy Gone and somebody else whose name I cannot remember and I apologize, uh, put together in part because DSA has grown so quickly and there are new ocs and new locals cropping up and the aim is to vet proposals and their platform is to make sure that that when ocs and when chapters form that they have enough preparation or know what they're going to be doing. And some of that I is very important like making sure that national has guidelines for um, recalls. But the part of it that, that made me pause is does the third item, I believe where it says new organizing committees, we'll have boiler plate or pre Linton written bylaws, which I immediately think, well, what if an Osi wants to develop its own bylaws and its own methods within the guidance that Dsa was together
Speaker 1being being such a big tent. And so multi tendency that it can be hard to sort of square a couple of circles when you're talking about, uh, how a specific chapter is going to function, uh, internally, how it's, how it's structured, how they make decisions. So having, uh, something from the National Committee that is a boiler plate maybe, um, potentially forced on local chapters might, um, really have the effect of
Speaker 5MMM.
Speaker 1It might really have the effect of a really squashing, um, the, the sort of like individual expression, uh, of a chapter that would probably, uh, allow it to more effectively be a sort of local community based organization.
Speaker 2So I pulled it up because I was feeling incredibly guilty for not having it in front of me while I'm talking about it. There was, um, three planks to the platform for the 2017 convention that has been put together. Um, and the people putting it together. Uh, Natalie mediary, Adam Goldman and Jeremy goal. Jeremy Goldman's with DSA is today. I, I know him and he's, he's a good person. Um, the plank one is to set priorities,
Speaker 5uh,
Speaker 2nationally and I have no problem with that. The second is to have an amendment about a national grievances process to handle local and national disputes. Again, absolutely no problem with that. The third is a constitutional amendment requiring new chapters to provisionally adopt national sample bylaws for that first six months. And, and we all know about the tyranny of the default as well. So yes, I I it was the requirement bit that made me pause and made me think, well, that's kind of rude in my opinion when then may well be organizing and new chapters that has something of their own that they want to adopt. I, it is very important that we have codes of conduct and conflict resolution set up asap for new chapters. But I don't think that saying all right here are your bylaws is necessarily the best way to go about doing it.
Speaker 1I think that, uh, probably a better way to go about doing it is, um, really put more effort into or put more resources into the mentorship program like Mary Virginia did with the, um, our chapter out here. So that someone who has already been in the party who has already been doing organizing within, uh, a local chapter and, and his, uh, and does have, uh, you know, very local and regional connection can sit down with the people who are starting the chapter and say, all right, so what's your, what's your concerns? What do you guys care about? You know, what's your, one of your tendencies? How do you want to structure this? And then like sit down and really help them, uh, figure out for themselves, not to give them something but to, to help them discover how they want to structure their local chapter themselves.
Speaker 2Yeah. And this is going to out me to anybody who reads the same forums as, as I'm on. But, um, I described it as being the difference between being told, well, best practices for a local to have x, Y, and z. So this is why we feel that that's very important that a local half these things for building solidarity here, see samples, here are some ideas. You'll mental, we'll check in, we'll help you, we'll guide you, we'll help you develop a timeline and develop these things. This is all right. Welcome to DSA. These are your bylaws. Like does it, does the difference between those two? Yeah, yeah and I prefer the full month. Now, you know, Larry and Jeremy when I've talked with them, have been very responsive to my concerns and I, I definitely trust that we will see them edited to have more nuance around that. But as written it, uh, it was, seemed a little bit heavy handed.
Speaker 1So, um, you know, that I had, that would definitely be something that's probably going to come up at the, the national convention in August, I believe. Uh, so, um, why don't we, when we talk about that, um, what's actually gonna Happen at that national convention? Um, how is DSA northbay going to be involved in that? Because we are not technically a chapter yet. We only have uh, an organizing committee. Um, yeah. So, uh, give us a little insight on what's going on
Speaker 2with that. Well, because we will not a local by the deadline, DSA North Bay itself will not have any delegates for the convention. Delegates come from local chapters that were established by a certain certain deadline. We can um, apply as members of an organizing committee to be at large delegates. But I personally am running to be a delicate for Dsa San Francisco because that is by their bylaws, they cover the North Bay area until where they covered it before we were set up and I'm still nominally got one foot in DSA, NSF as a bay area, we are looking at putting together a bay area chapter summit narrow to the convention so that bay area locals can meet and talk about our priorities and hopefully get on the same page or similar pages. And not necessarily vote as a block, but know what to expect and also work on developing the links so we can, we can work together in the future caucus together essentially. Yes. Yeah. I have already said, and I'm going to say again, uh, I need somebody to start the DSA over 30 caucus because I keep getting owned by all these young kids and I do not like it.
Speaker 1All these young kids with their fresh means in there
Speaker 2takes and they need to just get off my lawn, which is our low on which we can commune only own but get off my lawn.
Speaker 1So, um, yeah, so big things coming up with a, a DSA. So a DSA northbay will not have a voting delegate, but we'll have a presence then
Speaker 2fingers crossed the delegate election. So Dsa, San Francisco have not happened yet. So I don't yet know if I will be elected as a delegate. If I do not, then if we do not get anybody that is from DSA North Bay in as a delegate for another chapter, which I mean, it does seem slightly rude for us to come in and be, Hey, hi San Francisco, we're just going to be one of your delegates now. Um, through the summit we can get our concerns heard and maybe we can also talk about having at large members. The difficulty with that is that it's going to be very full convention and all the Scuttlebutt that I've heard is going to is that it's so busy and so large that they may not be space for many at large members. Yeah. Because there are so many new chapters as well and I met so many new ocs are, so we'll, we'll see.
Speaker 1So I think that, um, I don't think that's a good to leave a DSA DSA chat until we maybe bring a, uh, a couple of other bay area DSA members so we can talk about things in a little bit more specificity. Um, why don't we, uh, why don't we bring it back down to the local and, and talk about the specific issues that are happening here. Um, for example, the, um, uh, measure c and fight for 15, that's happening here in Santa Rosa specifically.
Speaker 2Well, I'll measure c, um, that is rent control, rent stabilization and that's a special election, correct? Yes, that is correct. I am not eligible to vote in that election. So I have been spent the mounds of political advertising but um, North Bay organizing project and jobs with justice and the Green Party and uh, some of community action coalition has been going door to door doing canvasing for yes on c
Speaker 1and, and um, you know, it is a very, it's a very, um, specific and hyper local thing that's happening in Santa Rosa. But for, for people who are maybe unaware of the, the local specifics here, sort of Santa Rosa is like the major urban center of the North Bay until you get up to Eureka. So, so it, it brings in a ton of people. Um, there is, I think, uh, eh, somewhere around like, okay, what is it like 180,000 people? I think in the town proper there's people coming in from, from all over to work there. And so the things that, um, the, the kind of laws, regulations, that kind of thing that pass in Santa Rosa, we really become the template on which, um, wider action happens. For example, with the um, uh, the rent control, if we pass rent control in Santa Rosa for one, it's a huge housing market in the area and for a second it gives, um, sort of a political impetus to pass it on the county level.
Speaker 2Cool. And it's kind of the hyperlocal equivalent to what California is hoping to do with SB five, six, two. We're hoping that as goes California so goes the nation that it'll kind of be a wave across, right? Well what gets me with measure, see with rent stabilization and rent control is that the council passed it as a law. And so it was a law, but then big money came in, started paying people to go out and canvas and get signatures to put it on the ballot. So for a brief moment there, Santa Rosa had rent stabilization.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um, you know, and developers. Yeah. I, yes. Yeah. They're, they're the, they're the people with the big money there. Um, you know, deeply ideologically capitalistic. They tend to be the biggest blocks for this kind of stuff because they can, um, with a pretty efficient amount of resources for them. But we'd some more difficult for people like us, uh, organizations, organizations like ours, to put that kind of resources into, you know, swaying just enough people to, to make a log go our way. So, um, yeah, it's, it's very important that we are, you know, if we don't have the money to fight them, we get the manpower to do it, which is, you know, pretty standard for leftists. Okay.
Speaker 2Yeah. And big ups to North Bay organizing project, putting so much into this. I,
Speaker 4okay.
Speaker 2I hugely respect them. And I, I wished that I had the time to do more connection with North Bay organizing project, but right now it's not in my very limited free time. Right. I that was a tweet going around a while back because, you know, if you, uh, there's nothing that will make somebody a socialist quivers and talking to a landlord or something like that. But I completely mangled and being a renter myself and dealing with dealing with the wrong ta. Yeah.
Speaker 4Okay.
Speaker 2It really had, has knee idealistically dreaming of government run dormitories or the fact that the government could supply housing. I could just pick up and move and know that I would have housing wherever I went. Right. And obviously that's kind of a pipe dream. And also government run housing doesn't sound very anarchist.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, so it was the way that, the way that I sort of conceive of that is that it's, it's less of a government run the housing and it's government funded housing and it's, um, you know, uh, the, the government would, at least under using the, the, um, political system that we have, what you could do is have a essentially a, um, of a tax supported fund that would provide for new building construction as demographics change as the needs of the community change. And then how on earth would you means test that? Oh, but you wouldn't exactly. Yeah. So, and, and so, you know, basically the idea would be that the government would, would come in, uh, with the, um, sort of advice and consent of the local population, the, the people within the neighborhood and saying, Hey, what do you guys need? And then, you know, decide, uh, what actually needs to be done, provide the funding to build that and then hand that over to a, a cooperative that is essentially managed by the people who live there. Now
Speaker 2you and I being booked unites or come or lists or tip book Indians, yes. Uh, uh, not lifestyle and a kiss.
Speaker 1I, none of you are free of lifestyles.
Speaker 2The people were shocked. Um, and the people were astonished by his doctrine. Yes. Uh, I've never lived in a squat. I've not done anarchist is housing anything like that in part because I think I came to this, this political awakening kind of late and also out of necessity rather than leaning. But I, I prefer things to be planned but not centrally planned, but just for somebody to have a planner rather than letting things organically grow. But things that organically grow can also be really good.
Speaker 1Well, yeah, and that's, um, you know, that's something that a lot of people, um, sort of a failed to recognize that there are, there are sort of a three, um, well there's, there's a couple of different ways that you can actually manage an economy. You can have a command economy, um, which is run typically in, in a capitalist fashion from, you know, central centralized bureaucracies. Oh, Hi Kitty. Hey, you want to not do that? Maybe
Speaker 2interruption from the most anarchistic cats. Yes.
Speaker 1Uh, so where were we? Oh, yeah. So, so I mean there's, there's a couple of ways that you can bet you can run. You could have a command economy, for example. Um, uh, the USSR is a command economy. He was essentially planned by bureaucrats. You can have a, um, a capitalist economy, which is, you know, uh, uh, many different, um, essentially centrally planned bureaucracies who are managing the properties that they are allowed to have a monopolistic control over. Or you can have a decentralized and participatory economic systems where they are planned. Uh, but they are planned via direct democracy, essentially a collaboration, right? It's not, it's not a competitive system. It is a cooperative system. So you don't have the, the sort of overhead of people doing the same thing, trying to put each other out of business. It's, you know, people working together to find the most fair and efficient allocation of resources that they can. And that's really, um, something that a lot of the, it's really the, the sort of main idea of the libertarian socialist, uh, and our case wing of the, the sort of socialists spectrum
Speaker 2while we're talking about housing. There was a little bit of a kerfuffle on Twitter on Wednesday about San Francisco UNB that's the, yes. Uh, because a, some DSA SF members are not fans of emb and there are some people in Sfe MB who our DSA members. And so this kind of came to a head when something went out in the newsletter that was not very nice about you and these, that they are pro gentrification and capitalists, which can be argued, but that also highlighted the fact that as I mentioned way back earlier, knowing that you're going to be seeing these people face to face makes you a lot less likely to start throwing insults around. And it was, some of these discussions were the level of rhetoric was strong, but it didn't get, it didn't get to throwing punches level on Twitter. I personally do not know yet enough about UBS and to really have a strong viewpoint. But anything that uses the market as an argument or an appeal to the market to solve a problem I'm or gives good things to landlords and developers I'm instinctively leery about because traditionally what's good for developers is not good for the proletariat.
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean there, there are ways that you can steer developers into a more sort of community friendly direction. But yeah, I mean it's, the market is really about efficient allocation of resources. Yes. But it is about efficient allocation, allocation of resources for the purpose of profit. I mean, and that's why, uh, we grow enough food on this planet for 10 billion people and yet we have millions upon millions of people starving. Okay.
Speaker 2And also big old corn surpluses and cheese. Mountains.
Speaker 1Exactly. And, and late lakes of, uh, milk essentially. Uh, and, and that's also why I'm in this country. We have something like three times the number of empty housing stock. Then we actually have homeless people.
Speaker 2So many houses or homes in San Francisco being kept either as investment properties or airbnb properties or just held empty because they can't because it's somebody to rent at that price. And don't want to lower the cost.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. You know, um, the, it's the same, the same process as a supermarket throwing out perfectly fresh food instead of giving it to people, uh, who, who actually need it. You know, all this a rental properties. They, these landlords would rather have them empty then given to people who are desperate for housing
Speaker 2and then a market solution to that will somehow end up with getting even more money somehow for doing what they should have been doing all along.
Speaker 1Yeah. Which is getting the hell out of the way and letting the people, you know, essentially run their own lives. Uh, bringing it back to the, the sort of emb spat. Uh, why don't you give us a little bit of background on that for those of us who had been a little bit out of the loop there. Um, so, so what are the, what are the MBS doing, uh, and more specifically, what are the DSA members of the MBS dealing and how is that sort of sparking some contention within the party?
Speaker 2Well, I don't know how much of this I can I can actually talk about with or authority because a lot of it comes secondhand or from watching on Twitter or being tangentially involved in conversations. Um, but in short, that was a, the DSA SF newsletter for Mei went out and in a section in that it said Sfe envy is planning a housing panel. There are pro development pro gentrification pro landlord organization receive a lot of money from tech. Um, they seek to fix the housing crisis by building any sort of housing that, that tends to be above market rate housing. Instead of addressing the gap in housing that currently exists between such housing and housing for low and middle income individuals. The newsletter made a call for folks to chat, come up with plans and materials to challenge that narrative and challenge any, uh, disinformation that would be coming up APP for the UMB housing panel. And I think that's a, that's a perfectly valid thing to ask about and say we need to make sure that the full story is heard. That the fact that as we mentioned, you know, just doing it within the market isn't necessarily the best option, but people think within the market because that's all we know. But there are members of Umb who are in DSA NSF and got that newsletter and were quite offended by the way that it was put. And then it being the internet, somebody Google search to somebody else and came up with completely the wrong person. And now apparently the anti UMB backlash is being led by somebody in Oakland who has a house and spoiler alert, that's definitely not the person who's running the Dsas f Auntie UNB stuff. Um, it, it just kind of snowballed a little bit. And then piss pig grandma who is not a member of DSA NSF but was on Twitter and saw this happening, waded in because he has a very good perspective on this from living in San Francisco and needing to have the low market rate housing for quite some time. And,
Speaker 1and you know, has, has a lot of, um, perhaps, um, uh, respect and authority within the, the leftest community out here for his participation in the fight against Isis, with the Kurds and, and other forces of Rosalba. So, yeah. So, um, so how was that a, is that sort of a shit storm that has basically subsided or has this come to any kind of head or is it still sort of an ongoing thing? Right.
Speaker 2They wasn't meeting, the meeting was on June 1st, and from what I've heard of it, it was, there was security there to make sure that only people who had tickets got in. Um, I guess because they were worried that dsis f anti be contingent would come in like rev column or something and start handing out pamphlets. I, I don't know, but I gather it's kind of quiet and down to a bit of a rumble. The panel was, had the typical developer on it saying typical developer stuff and not getting challenged on it. So part of the work will be
Speaker 4okay
Speaker 2to figure out if we want to challenge that. And if we do, how can I say we, but I'm only tangentially involved in this through 3 million people involved. It's seeing these things spill out onto Twitter kind of almost makes you wish for democratic centralism because at least with, at least with ISO when they have these arguments nobody else has to, has to watch. But also seeing that happen on Twitter and seeing people being cordial to each other afterwards is, it was very uplifting.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, I, I can see the, um, the, the desire to have these kinds of things I'm sort of hidden from, you know, wider public view. But honestly, I, I, I think it's good. Um, I, I really do think it's, it's actually better for our movement that we have some of these arguments out in the open. Uh, I think it makes us a little bit more, I think it makes us a little bit more accessible to people who are maybe less inclined to, um, be as overtly radical. I think it, you know, it helps humanize people. It, you know, having an argument out in public can often be a way that sort of people start engaging with you. You know, people see people see this, this, uh, yes in my backyard or anti yes in my backyard and, and weigh in. And then all of a sudden, oh there, you know, talking to and following socialists and you know, it's a propaganda tool. Just agit prop
Speaker 2my deep dark secret is not so deep and dark secret. Um, that part of what me was tumbler was Anik is tumbler and um, Wobbly Tumbler,
Speaker 1uh Huh.
Speaker 2Alerted me to the fact that I was actually eligible to be a world. And that a lot of, a lot of the stuff that was in that very tumbler but also very dank means was, was speaking to me like that and seeing the arguments and discussions that people would get into. Um, some of it was kind of typical. Tumblr skews are young, so a lot of it was young, idealistic, somebody's got a bookcase full of marks, arguments, but
Speaker 1Prolia then now kind of thing.
Speaker 2Yeah. But through it, this sincerity, Sean, through and, and that I think it gets ignored when we talk about dirt bag. Irony left that despite despite what we may reject online, that we're socialists or leftists because we believe a better world is possible and because we want to help that world com
Speaker 1right.
Speaker 2And being able to watch us discuss and see that all of us are coming from good places with our arguments and I think is,
Speaker 1that's good. It's a, yeah, I think it's, you know, better than the other way. I really, I have, um, a very, very deep mistrust of democratic centralism. I, I think it's basically much like a liberal democracy. It's a, it's a cover for authoritarianism masking as democracy. Essentially.
Speaker 210 keys do have some very good means. Not that democratic centralist all time keys, but you know, there's ends of ends of the spectrum
Speaker 1like comrade pengu making stolen look like a fucking answer.
Speaker 2Um, I appreciate that part of the discourse, but I, I think focusing on,
Speaker 6uh,
Speaker 2focusing on the issues, Roth and Ross as an ideology can be a more useful way of forging left unity. Because we can, we can say we all believe that socialist feminism is great and do something focused on that rather than having yet another big discussion about whether Lennon was good or bad. Boy, like he was pretty good and people, there are people in Dsa who insists that we should not in any way be glorifying and Lennon and that confuses me.
Speaker 1Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I talked about this on the, uh, political fun time, happy hour podcast, political funtime happy hour to podcast for mouthful of a, of a title, but I just love it. It's a, yeah, that's such a great title for a podcast. It's ridiculous. Anyway, um, got your, I really do believe that. I think one of the things that we have as Ann Arkis, um, that, uh, tends to not happen in the, um, the more traditional socialist a tanky end of the social spectrum is that we, we talk about, uh, following ideologies. If we do talk about ideologies, uh, we don't talk about so much, um, following specific people.
Speaker 2It turns out that we do agree with marks in terms of the, the great man theory of history being bollocks,
Speaker 1right? Yeah. So, so instead of, um, instead of being Marxists or, or, um, you know, being, uh, stands of marks, uh, we, we take what we think as, um, useful and good about his theories and, and his ideology that, that he helped create and we say what is applicable to our modern era. And it makes it easier too to sort of like, look at our current context and, and try to fit our actions and ideology into something that makes sense for the current context. Whereas, you know, when you're talking about Marxism, Leninism, Maoism Mlms, let's just say MLN, Eh, it's, it's, it's far too easy to fall into. What did he specifically do? No, what was the, what was the thing that they did? Let's do that. And instead of taking the, the sort of a core of the ideology and sort of asking, is this applicable to our current context? It, it makes this cult of personalities. And you know, the other thing is that it just makes it harder to argue with people. Like you know, some people will come back and say, how are you going to follow Mark's? He was uh, he was destitute his whole life. I was like, why do I give a shit? I don't care. Or, um, you can't follow, uh, uh, you can't follow moule he killed so many people. And it's like, well, I mean if his, it doesn't matter if the person telling you that killing people is bad is a serial killer. It still doesn't make, it doesn't make the fact that killing people is bad any less. True. So you know, making sure that that we sort of divorce or the personality from the ideology is I think a very important thing to do.
Speaker 2Or is it was so eloquently put by the artists behind pictures for sad children separate the art from the artist. When I do miss pictures for sad children. Well and I hope that the artist is, is in a good place. That is off topic. But yeah, that does make me feel better about being kind of ECLECTIC, non ideologically bound, calming all lists slash anarchists. Slash grab a bag of general leftism. Yeah. Knowing that what we, what we focus on our beads and other than words.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I don't think it makes it, um, a lot of people can sort of fall into the buffet style of ideology where they start picking and choosing, you know, bits and pieces of different ideologies that can, and an end up sort of like forming this, um, self contradictory hodgepodge. You know, it's still important to really think about and develop a, a worldview that is, um, consistent, uh, but still is informed by reality and, and is able to change depending on the reality of the situation that you're in.
Speaker 2And I kind of hope that you'll be able to see or hear some of that happening through the course of this podcast because I come to it with very little formal knowledge of ideology and through the course of our conversations with I'm bound to even accidentally learn something.
Speaker 1That's the hope. Now, I mean the, I, I believe I've said this before, but you know, the, the biggest reason why I wanted to, uh, have this podcast is to have an excuse to just talk to people who are smart and because someone has to keep my inflated ego in check. Oh, I'm very good at that. Yeah.
Speaker 2One of the things that an interested in, in having a, a variety of people come in and, and talk about leftist issues, but both you and I having a similar outlook in terms of similar areas of leftism probably means that we will be focusing more on those areas. And also our geographical situation means that it will be mostly left coast oriented.
Speaker 1Yeah. So why don't we, um, maybe refocus a little bit, uh, let's talk about, um, uh, news that's been happening locally.
Speaker 2I, I do not have anything for local politics really because I don't, I don't follow it as closely as I should. That's fine. Uh, yeah. Should I take this approach of carefully insulating myself from the news and only going and checking it when I know I have time? Do you have just a tiny little breakdown and then recover.
Speaker 1I know
Speaker 2I have the privilege of being able to do that. Yeah. But
Speaker 1I mean, I'm already insane, so I'm not really worried about the news disappearing my sanity down the rabbit hole. So
Speaker 2it's so easy to get pulled in and spend the entire day refreshing one use website after another and just sinking deeper and deeper into a pit of despair. And I find avoiding the news and either getting out and doing stuff, which I never thought I would say it, but getting out and doing shit helps me feel better. Or just being around people that I know feel the same way rather than being alone
Speaker 5in
Speaker 2this little shell of cynicism, uh, that just ends up getting filled with sadness and anxiety and depression, getting out and, and is spreading that sadness and anxiety and depression around with a bunch of other people who know how that's feeling.
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean, we're all miserable and misery loves company, so might as well be miserable together. But I think that's, um, I think that's a really big reason why, um, uh, why organizations like the DSA, the Socialist Party, you know, um, local organizations like the, uh, the people's coalition, community action coalition, these are so important because we have been sort of propagandized into this idea that we are individuals and now we don't exist as a, um, as a collective. We don't, you know, as as stature would say, the, the community doesn't exist. It is only individuals acting individually. And that's not true. We're very social creatures. So, you know, being a part of these organizations is, is just really important. Um, you know, for our mental health and, and pushing for a assistant of political economy that really understands that we are social beings and really not only venerates the individual, but venerates the actions of individuals coming together as a collective. You know,
Speaker 2I know there are some people who just cannot engage that way, whether it be because they have, they have challenges or difficulties that prevent them from doing that or just geographically they are a DSA chapter of one or they are the only socialist in the base in Antarctica.
Speaker 5Um, but
Speaker 2personally I've found being around a peer group of Socialists Acom rates, I found some friends amongst comrades and even though I, if you ask me on a, even on a good day, I'll say I hate social gatherings. I have gone to social gatherings and I've enjoyed them and I have wanted to do more of them and it's still befuddling me how that happened.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah. You know, even in the pit of depression, it's still, you know, helps to actually just getting out and being with other people who are sort of sympathetic. You know,
Speaker 2it really sucks when a therapist or a doctor tells you to do something and you resist doing it because you know that they're wrong and then one day you do it and fuck they were right.
Speaker 1Yup. There's nothing worse than being proven wrong. Well, I think that's probably a pretty good place to end it for today. It's been a pretty good, um,
Speaker 2introduction to me. An introduction to yeah. Rambling approach.
Speaker 1Exactly. Yeah. Um, hopefully we will be having more,
Speaker 2no more phone conversations and more fun guests and things that will enliven the ears.
Speaker 1Yeah. And it looks like, um, we have a couple of other, uh, guests who hopefully will be, um, on in short order so we can move from a finger's crossed, moved from a monthly podcast and to more frequency, um, really start pumping out that good leftist content. Uh, so let's go ahead and, uh, wrap it up there. Uh, I have been Tiberius Caracas
Speaker 2and I have been calling all source. You're going to hit us up,
Speaker 1but at left-pad on Twitter
Speaker 2or at Commonweal sauce on Twitter,
Speaker 1uh, hit us up on email. That's a left coast podcast@gmail.com. You can go to our a reddit page that has reddit.com/r/left coast.
Speaker 2I wished that every time you mentioned reddit you would splice in that, that three seconds, never go on reddit.
Speaker 1I might do that. Yeah. Uh, never go on reddit except for this particular page. You can go there everywhere else on Reddit is trash. Yeah.
Speaker 2And you can follow DSA northbay on Twitter. At, at DSA, North Bay, or on Facebook. At Dsa. North Northbay.
Speaker 7Yeah. Hit us up with the feedback. Criticism. You want to come on the show? We'll probably have you on. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. Comrades. Get out there. Stay safe. And a stand in solidarity and mutual aid.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 9Okay.