Left Coast Media
Left Coast Media
Wherein We Stand With The Incarcerated
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For the 25th of June, 2017, welcome to the left coast.
Speaker 2Oh, right. Welcome to the left coast podcasts. Um, this is actually a really, I think important to interview, uh, that we are doing today. Um, we have, uh, Brooke from the incarcerated workers organizing committee, uh, basically telling us about, uh, the, the struggles that they've been doing, unionizing prisoners, um, making sure that people on the inside and outside are, are getting connected. Um, you'll hear all of that in the interview. Really solid. Uh, well, first let us introduce ourselves. My name is Tiberius Caracas and I am communal source and we are coming to you from the North Bay area of the left coast,
Speaker 3the incredibly hot north Bay area of the left coast.
Speaker 2Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, if it were up to me, this entire podcast would just be me complaining about the heat for an hour.
Speaker 3I don't know that that's really very revolutionary, but in temperatures like this, it does make you want to go out and complain about stuff.
Speaker 2Yeah. If it, if we can't do anything about the weather, at least what we can do is smash the system. Uh, so, uh, just to get over some are just to get through some, some local information. Uh, we do have our, uh, uh, North Bay Dsa chapter or our first public meeting, um, as, as we're actually steadily on our way to becoming a legitimate recognize chapter.
Speaker 3Yes. Our June meeting is on Monday the 26th of June at 6:30 PM and that is at the downtown Mary's Pizza Shack in Santa Rosa. That's on fourth street. And I don't have the exact address here because I didn't prepare.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2That's fine. None of us are ever prepared for these things. Um, it'll be up on the show notes, a just like it was for the last episode.
Speaker 3So I just want to kind of just have a little quick discussion about anything that's going on locally or even nationally that, that you feel we feel we need to touch on. Um, I don't want to talk too much about what happened in Alexandria, but because I don't really have anything to say except that I personally don't think killing people is very good. But on the other hand, do you expect to do this shit to people and for us to not get angry?
Speaker 2Yeah. Um, you know, I, I, um, personally I'm not fundamentally opposed to violence. Uh, I am, I am opposed to violence that doesn't serve our interests. And, uh, living in the times that we do a debt, you know, feel maybe potentially revolutionary, but, uh, in my opinion aren't quite there. I think that a lot of the violence is actually, uh, doing us a disservice. Um, and
Speaker 4yeah,
Speaker 2uh, you can, you can see that in, in the reaction to this, this latest shooting and, and I, I don't want to get too much into sort of psychoanalyzing the guy. I don't think that that is a of fruitful avenue of discussion or analysis, but I do believe that he was coming from a legitimate place of fear and anger at the way that the ruling system has been treating everybody. You know, everybody on, on all sides of this imperium you know, from the internal to the external. And you know, as, as much as we hate on the Democrats and the Republicans are really are the primary face and pushers for a lot of this. And, uh, I think that
Speaker 3we just tend to not complain about the Republican so much because we kind of assume that everybody already knows that they are evil incarnate.
Speaker 2Right? Right. Um, argumentum ad hit [inaudible] [inaudible] nobody, you're not going to eat. It's not a fruitful argument, like I said, to talk about how evil Hitler is. Uh, you know, and in the same vein, obviously they're not the actual Nazis for the most part that we'll leave aside the actual discussion of how awful the Republican Party is for, for another podcast. We could probably do that all day long. Um, but you know, they, they really are, um, setting themselves up as the, the face of, for want of a better word, evil in this country. And I think that it is one of the reasons why the organizations that we are a part of, that, that we are starting, that we're joining that really are important. Because as, as much as this resurgence in leftist activity a is really heartening. It has to be put in the context of an already organized, empowered, reactionary, right.
Speaker 3And on a only slightly related, uh, angle, I would like to personally say that I am very glad that Theresa May cannot count, merely walk to her car, but it has to run while people are shouting at her. And I'm, I'm surprised so far that nobody has, has gone with a, a large supply of eggs to one of these, one of these events where she pretends to actually give a crap. Um, but
Speaker 2wow. Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn basically goes out there and stands in the middle of a crowd and is rightfully praised for basically airing the grievances of the people who are most effected by the horrible, horrible people like Theresa May.
Speaker 3I long for the seizing of all of those empty houses and the, the forced reassignment I, that was amazing to see. And I am glad that people who are scared about losing their third home aren't scared about losing this.
Speaker 2Yeah. Um, if you weren't living in it, you shouldn't own it. Uh, I'm, you know, personally fundamentally opposed to, um, owning wow. Two to owning private property, but to, uh, owning a home or somebody, uh, housing as an investment or a rental property. I think it is basically inserting yourself as a Leech, uh, and the, uh, necessary survival of somebody else.
Speaker 3And to somebody who has been to my apartment and has seen some of the Sheltie maintenance that the landlords do hit, they are not providing a valuable service.
Speaker 2Yeah. And as someone who knows a landlords and developers, um, yeah, I know exactly how a little baycare. Um, yeah. So, uh, you know, there's, I think that there's plenty to talk to or talk about that we will have other comrades and, and other people who are doing really important work. Um, uh, pushing the, um, pushing programs that are really helping us to basically empower normal people and to give them a way to survive without having to rely on
Speaker 5these, um, uh, capital owners and to allow and enable them to join the class struggle. Yeah. So, so will be, you know, uh, as, as the weeks go on, we will be having these people on. But, um, I, I really do want to emphasize how important it is for, uh, any revolutionary program for any program that, that even is a reformist program. How fundamentally important it is that we deal with the carceral state and the people who are most equipped and, and most involved in, um, pushing back against that carceral state are the prisoners themselves. And, and so if you're not involved, uh, you need to be involved. And I think that the scopes for myself as well, uh, having known about this and not being as involved as I should like this is, this is something that I'm not admonishing other people for. I'm also admonishing myself for. So, uh, let's, let's get to the interview. Um, and then we will catch you next week.
Speaker 6[inaudible]
Speaker 5all right, and welcome to the interview, uh, with Brooke from the incarcerated workers organizing committee. So, uh, why don't we just get, um, I think that a lot of people really aren't even aware that I walk is a thing. So why don't we just actually start with what that is, where it comes from and you know, what, what's your role in it?
Speaker 7A project of the incarcerated workers, the world, the Iww, the wobblies. Um, it came into being of a prisoner's movement from inside, um, mainly in the south and in the Midwest, um, due to a variety of contacts. And, uh, I don't know if people pay that much attention, uh, your audience to prisoners struggles. But the last decade of seven or eight years, I've seen like a slow crescendo of internal rebellion and a prisoner organizing, um, this, uh, took the form of work stoppages and Georgia, it took the form of a massive, you know, hunger strike against in depth and it's solitary here in California. It, uh, to have waves of it started taking, um, an atypical form recently and in engaging in work strikes or, or in refusing movement if you don't have a job refusing all movements. And this occurred in Texas, Georgia, Alabama and um, we're all the precursors to the organizing going into a national prisoner strike that was being organized for a September 9th, 2016. And that, that strike was basically three years in the making in terms of the organizing and most of the organizing was going on internally with, um, whatever communications were possible between prisoners and between facilities. Then between outside support networks, they were basically developing a platform and a plan of action in order to basically put prisoners struggles, which they regard largely as the human rights movement and an assertion of personhood, uh, against basically and Andy Black and arbitrary like violence system of incarceration. I walk was basically called into being as part, you know, of a very large and kind of varied outside coalition
Speaker 8[inaudible]
Speaker 7and uh, I won't go into the minutia of like how the relationships kind of parlayed themselves and becoming kind of a, a larger entity, but the say the least. Um, it, it was successful. Um, the, uh, IWW was a about the only, um, union that would touch any of this. Um, I mean it's historically a radical militant anti capitalist labor union.
Speaker 5Right. And there's just an incredible amount of dehumanization ne that goes on when you talk about, um, people who have been labeled criminals or who are incarcerated in the west. There is a tremendous amount that the culture devalues them as human beings. And so there is, uh, there just isn't the, a lot of the cultural awareness that would tend to lead to people to accept the, the unionization of these workers in the same way that they would with, you know, your traditional, um, blue collar workers.
Speaker 7Yeah, I mean dehumanization. Um, certainly in my personal analysis and um, at large to a large degree with I walk and the prisoner movement is that dehumanization and the stripping of personhood is, this is essentially fundamental to the whole process and is not only, um, like isolated to the prisoner as a class, but basically to all black and nine white subjects like within the United States and even applies, you know, on a differing scale to a other workers on the outside. They basically view the prison as an extension of a carceral state. We tend to just talk a lot about prisons as being like the, the site of struggle, quote unquote like to use leftist jargon. But, um, it's only a specialized arena that basically is representative of a continuum and as depersonalization, um, tends to how people are cheating on the outside to how they are surveilled. Do you, how violence against on white subjects, uh, in the United States is arbitrary, universal and immersive?
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 3So we're kind of drawing back from what starts as being described as like the school to prison pipeline and back further out into zooming out into the prison industrial complex. And then even further out into looking at whole system and the whole, um, that the entire nation as a carceral state, does that kind of describe a little bit?
Speaker 7Absolutely. Absolutely. And this analysis was forwarded by the prisoners themselves. And I want to, I don't want to make this clear that, um, we're not just like cow town to a certain identity calculus or seeking like authenticity by like touting the prisoners as leadership, but in an actual practice and an actual like doing the heavy lifting, not only in terms of risk and uh, material intervention but also intellectual labor. It's the prisoners inside that I, that are doing the work here and that basically our role on the outside and to basically engage in a certain, um, I don't know, I'd call it a conversation like through material means through political mutual development and kind of a collaborative relationship over the walls, outside and inside. Also like to continue the kind of a idea that it's a spectrum that's simply a specialized site of violence is that, um, when once you start doing local prison work, you realize that it's, it's a fact of life for, um, you know, certain sectors in classes that, uh, people are in and out constantly. I mean, I've been locked up like in jail, not in prison, under conviction. My uncle has been locked up, my nephew's going in and out of the system. People that served sentences are likely to go back to the tune of like a 70% recidivism rate here in California. Um, and also like once you step outside the white middle class to mention a prison sentence or a conviction or going to jail, this is a common thing and not some like catastrophic fall from grace culturally.
Speaker 5Yeah. Once you step out of the white middle class, it really becomes either the person you're talking to or someone that, that person personally knows has been to at one point in their life in jail or has been incarcerated or is currently incarcerated and present at an
Speaker 7his book fair. Which, uh, you know, um, we, we did several workshops at various conferences and, um, we would just ask people to raise their hands, like an ask about their like without betraying like family or personal business, like who has either been locked up, had a family member or someone close, um, been locked up under a conviction and like half the people even in that kind of specialized politicized and select class determined and white dominated room, half the hands went up.
Speaker 5Yeah. Because we're living in a state that has a incarceration rate that rivals any scene in the history of the human race
Speaker 3and has a vested interest in maintaining a source of cheap labor and, uh, maintaining levels of structure. Yeah. To keep that cheap playbook controlled.
Speaker 7Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. It's, um, I kind of one kind of a like flesh out a little bit of a, what the organizing, uh, that I walk is engaged in and, and basically we're, we're carry on tapped. Um, the idea that prisoners should have a union, um, was, was advanced, you know, in the late sixties and early seventies, you know, even by George Jackson, um, they in the supreme court, they basically did not recognize the legitimacy of a prisoners union on legal challenge. So essentially to organize collectively inside is, um, a criminal enterprise. Wow. Yeah. That's actually something that I didn't know. Yeah. They, and in California, I mean there, there's an astounding variety. I mean, on top of some basic foundational similarities, um, on how prisons operate, which is like, um, neither convenience nor like the product of an operating handed all levels. It's kind of a natural way, but different states structure the systems. Um, one, one of the particularities of California is that even on prison yards, you cannot stand in groups larger than three or else you'll get a notice to disperse. And if you refuse, you will start receiving like LTL rounds less than lethal rounds from the towers. You cannot fraternize with people. You, it's be illegal to communicate, um, outside your yard or dormitory with another prisoner. Um, communication is extremely, you know, and I knew a complete trying to communicate with the prisoners side, you're completely exposed and vulnerable to the arbitrary whims of, um, the investigation units and the sensors within the mailroom. All phone calls are listened to. Um, and, and many of these advances are during the last wave of prison struggle. Like, you know, pretty much cresting at Attica. None of these like the come to compare their conditions and now now is like many times worse in terms of state control and also like the population is 10 times as large. You know, there were only about 200,000 people like under supervision, quote unquote, you know, and in 1971 now we have, depending on how you count, anywhere between 2.2 and 2.5 million. So, so basically that's rather intense. Yeah. And um, to, to kind of broaden the idea of like what unionizing a prisoner is because basically the idea of a union, um, is basically we've been neutered and really honed down to like and really impotent idea on the outside. Um, that it's, I mean, organized labor on the outside as far as I walk into the wobblies are concerns for the most is just the layer of management, you know, basically that basically it's basically another layer of ameliorating grievances and social control. And especially when you see, um, the, uh, unions themselves turn into a professional
Speaker 2managerial class that is basically pulling from a college students who have never actually worked in
Speaker 9the, the
Speaker 2industries that they are unionizing.
Speaker 7Well, even, even if it did pull from the rank and file, what's, what's, you know, I, yeah, there is a professional class that are staffers and unions, even if the rank and file had their way, the idea and the legacy of like, you know, uh, job site or industrial workers struggle is like, it is next to nonexistent. You know, it's basically only a negotiating body for like dollars and cents and largely a rear guard action against more takeaways on the inside. There are very few prisoners actually. I mean in our state there are very few in different, in other states there are more in Georgia and Alabama and Texas, uh, rates of uh, you know, inmate having jobs or being farmed out on, you know, at least system. The corporate, you know, a labor contracts is much higher. But here in California it's only about 2% with only about 0.7% of those being, you know, working for a corporate outside vendor, you know, so to have a job is actually a pretty coveted position cause it's a good way like straight up. You basically do your bit to spend your time and concerning the outrageous costs of all, you know, what used to be like given like you have to buy soap, you have to buy the slightest things inside and they don't worry, just explain her prices. So to have even the slightest of job like takes the edge off those things. So we're not, I engaging in a typical dollars and cents like union struggle. It's basically a rubric under which to collectively organize outside the already existing like collective organizations that exist with inside prisons. Cause the prisoners already collectively organize except that it's called a gang or it's called the religious or it's called the religious group, which is one of those small niches you have left in order to meet in groups. Larger than three. You can get an hour a week either for like your prayer or whatever or you can form your own like pagan or oldness like present, even have like group like timed yourself or it's basically you know, street organizations, you know, or internal, um, prison organizations that get called gangs and the state tolerates, you know, for all its um, you know, utilization of gangs, stigma in order to levy additional discipline and arbitrary solitary and restriction of privileges. And basically it's what they fall back on every time they have to use lethal or basically, you know, extremely brutal force or basically repressive, you know, techniques against communication. They basically point to gang activity. But nonetheless, they're very happy with gang activity even beyond their historical like use of white supremacist gangs. The A, B or the European kindred or the sons of the south to use them as basically a pair of military assassination unit where they basically farm out disciplinary and disruptive violence to a prison gang in, in exchange for favors. So they're happy to utilize the gang when it's in their favor, you know, except that like when the prisoner actually wants to collect, will be organized on, um, on terms outside that they are given by the prison system, they are instantly deemed a threat to the facility. And we're looking to put just a different, you know, collective means of organizing, like on the menu for prisoners. You know, a lot of prisoners still fight back on a very individual basis.
Speaker 5Right. Sorry. So you were saying that the, um, uh, it was the prisoners themselves who are actually doing the organizing. There's, um, moral and material support coming from outside, but the, the primary method of organization is coming from within the prisons and within the prison population itself. Uh, it, given what you're saying about how, how dangerous and how difficult it is just to be in, in a group of more than, you know, a couple people, how, how is that actually happening? What, what, what's the, what's the way that, uh, these prisons are actually organizing? Okay.
Speaker 7Feds don't listen to this bed. Well, it's all pretty open and I mean, you know, this once you like start gaining a window into prison life, whether it's through correspondence or like, you know, if you're a legal assistant or even if you're a family member or if you've gone inside like prisoners, you have a a lot of time on your hands hand and there's an incredible array of talent and genius, you know, like behind bars, the national press about, um, in Lucasville, Ohio, southern, you know, Ohio state prison, Sosv of them actually succeeding in building computers, out of trash, out of recycled parts. And actually you like creating computers and hiding them behind this, the ceiling tiles and network thing them into the prisons, like, you know, it network and gaining their own communications network outside of the prison. And you know, and Lo and behold, the quote in the stories and Salon and vice where the story was cupboard is like the state information officer just astounded at the resource, you know, at the, you know, the genius of prisoners. So and considering like just the basic mechanics, like sometimes folks will organize. Um, just, you know, I, I don't know how much you know about the inside of prisoners, but there's a kind of a dazzling array of like arcane and different, um, kind of baroque religious affiliations, whether it's um, Moa bites or openness or Blackmores or the nation or the Muslims or other different, other, the comedic, you know, Afro centric folks or you know, or it's like wide identity. Like you know, there, there are ways to like group up and use that time to organize if you're lonely, if you don't even like meet and greet. I mean in their workplaces, in the world where you can't also like work in groups of three had been on job sites where if they saw you talking to a bunch of people standing around and didn't see asses and elbows quote unquote like you got, you got fucking dealt with, you know, so it, so you basically have a meeting with three then one person goes meets with another, you know, group of people or you also consider that any piece of literature that makes it inside to a prison. Now, especially with the complete retraction of educational programs in library funding, any piece of literature that makes it inside, it's going to be read on average 10 times. It's going to be passed from hand to hand to hand.
Speaker 3And is there much censorship of that communication as well or is it just that it's always being monitored
Speaker 7while they're always trying? It's, it's, you know, they, they can, they can cut off, you know, they can like catch nine copies of something, but then the 10th copy gets through. You know, I mean the oftentimes like some of the analogies to how literature and ideas get passed through. Um, is it, you could almost refer to like the, the legends of how I'm basically black insurrection under slavery, we're basically propagated where the Bible was used as a metaphor where things were handed by oral tradition where notes were passed hand to hand, where even weirder if literacy was like very rare, like, like one person would relay stories or as do storytelling or is through legend Tony or it was through secretive communications or through like Dropbox's like one later do another or what they call in prison, like, like flying a kite. The, the California prison, a hunger strike in 2013 where 30,000 prisoners, most many of them in solitary, like in the deepest of solitary is and specialized institutions, prisons within prisons. So where there's a will, there's a way
Speaker 3I, I'm, I'm a, a wobbly myself and I get the, I get the mailings, which I cannot remember the name of, but I think now from I am from Iraq and on the backside of them they have this stuff about how blocking this male is a violation of and it's got all of this, this legal ease about court cases in which it's been precedent that prisoners should be allowed this, this material. Um, does that generally helps the bulletins get through
Speaker 2or is that
Speaker 7it's worth a shot? It's worth a shot. You don't have bring up data? It could, it's always very hard to get data back because even when something gets stopped, we're not getting it returned to us. Like oftentimes like the people that are scanning male, um, in California to call the Igi, the internal gang investigators, it just specialty unit. They not just like return something or even give a prisoner a notice, which is a typical protocol, but something has been stopped due to like, it's nonconformity to rags. They will actually just confiscate it. So everyone on both sides is left, like wondering what happened to it. So why it's worth it's worth the microgram or two of toner on the back of the incarcerated worker newsletter in order to run it. It was like some like some people it will actually, you know, get through and like not every person in the mail room is like a seasoned longterm investigator. So if you send 20 you know, through and like there were four of the investigators like stopped them all, but like the new kid sees us on the back and thinks it's legit and then let's for through like boom, that's four copies that just made it inside and that means on the average that's going to be red 40 times, you know? So it's like all these marginal things you do to kind of like increase your odds of being able to communicate. You know, and I mean there are other methods we can't really talk about. I mean in prisoners also, um, you know, basically the going rate for an iPhone inside is about $2,500 right now. So if you've got 200, you know, 200 $2,500 to like throw to a dirty yard, you can get an iPhone, you know, and people use them all the time to communicate with families. But that's if you had that kind of cash and if you can kind of, and if you're not like a, you know, a spotted or like labeled a troublemaker because they will not let people, they identify as leaders to like have these phones unless you're basically a gang leader or part of a hierarchy that's not a threat to the institution. So, you know, contraband, cell phones, man, it's there. I know prisoners that right to me that, um, they, they, I know a cousin of a friend of mine here, he's got, he's got a contraband stone and he just uses it to pull up Google Street view and he cruises his old neighborhood to see how it's changed, you know?
Speaker 2So, so what do we, what do you guys actually organizing for, what are the, what are the things that you aren't doing? Um, like in the short term and like where's your actual goal? Like, what is the, what does the like obviously anarchism abolition of the wedge system. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the end of capitalism is obviously, but
Speaker 7yeah, cause we're not eating like symbolic aren't grandiose like posturing. We're actually doing material work and I'll get into that.
Speaker 2Yeah. So, so, so what is, what is that like the, the actual,
Speaker 7uh, uh,
Speaker 2near term goals that you guys are aiming for?
Speaker 7Well, I can talk about, I like a little bit and then I'll talk in particular about our chapter and like the, the kind of where we are within the organizing arc and well we've undertaken as a local chapter. Um,
Speaker 8yeah,
Speaker 7backwards from the prisoners context towards what they need to actually take action. Um, they basically like to quote cr James. Like the people are always rebelling, you know, and what, what gives that form and what makes it more likely are certain certain supports, certain liaison work, certain assurances that their voice will be heard and then they are much more likely to take action. Whatever we possibly can do to like aid them, whether it's on communications from one place to another, whether it's national news that we try to get them, whether it's even visits face to face or even it's helping get them like their own writings published, you know, we are aiding and there's self organization. So in terms of actual goals, I mean I walk is chopped out a small piece of the puzzle. I mean the prisoners, um, the, there's a different networks of like prisoner groups out there on the inside prison or struggle groups and um, connecting them up is, is like a crucial part of the work basically. There, the work is so overwhelming and demanding. Um, even for the folks on the outside doing support, which are usually like really overworked family members or ex incarcerated people that there's very little capacity left in order to launch further, like more offensive action, you know, it's all, it, it all kind of tends without an influx of outside energy and like intentional organizing, it tends to be defensive. It tends to be always coping with like the latest tragedy or setback or restriction of, you know, of, of their movement or, or a transfer or whatever. So whatever we can survive on, on bat tip, we do as much as we are capable of. Secondly, like we have in Iowa, um, the loose rubric of a industrial unionism, basically the, one of the virtues of the Iww, it recognizes workers and revenue, strange subjects outside of the strict, you know, kind of pure aisle like traditional leftist sense. It's not the blue collar white, you know, industrial floor worker. They recognize the unemployed, the recognize we productive labor, they recognize the prisoner, you know, so the prisoners are actually capable. Like they can actually have a voice in the union. You know, they've actually finally developed a more concrete means of chartering inside branches of the Iww. You know, if they meet certain criteria and I basically can show evidence of collective action and decision making and basically sent in an application form and they have a liaison to work with the outside. They are a chartered industrial branch of a union. They can set policy, they can ask for help, they can get a budget from like the national network, you know, and in terms of like a more looser idea of like how kind of this collective organizing kit and help, you know, with kind of an insurgent and like prisoner movement, um, it's, it's very easy to understand once you get involved with prisoners and once you understand what holds them back. I mean, what holds them back is not the threat of violence or the threat of retaliation or of risk. They basically negotiate that on, on terms that are way more profound than anybody who hasn't done time. Can even imagine leadership of the last national prison strike knew they were going to get thrown in the hole basically forever. And they didn't care. They still did it. And we're still suffering back and even attempted murder attempts, you know, beatings, uh, poisonings, um, isolation complete, you know, breaking off all communications. And you know, a lot of the leaders leadership inside our lifers, they're never going to see the outside. You know, if they play by the systems rules, you know they've been not only like stripped of personhood, their horizons are, are the prison and if they're not already like 20 years into their bit and completely institutionalized, that is their world. So what's holding them back from actually acting and taking collective action is support. Cause like these guys have seen waves of rebellion, they've seen riots, they've seen hunger strikes and basically beyond it basically being a moment of gratification. They've seen the repression come down and then like take that step forward and then like take two steps back. But when they actually have a liaison, when the movement actually spends the walls, they see themselves actually in a very concrete day to day way like improve their lot and have more power. We actually are able with like outside support networking liaison, like pushing their story like back on the agenda nationwide, even if it's in a very diffuse way in terms of like the discourse, you know, beyond like material means it actually gives them more leverage. We're actually putting a better card in their hand to play, to play this game. Just kind of violent game with the prison administration.
Speaker 5Right. And so I wanted to, um, maybe drill down a little bit on, on that part because I think that that is something that, um, those of us who are not in, uh, and, and, you know, perhaps might never be inside, uh, what is it that we can do to actually make sure that their struggles are, are known and heard and felt outside of the prison walls itself? Because when we had the, uh, recent, um, uh, protests is starting on the 9th of September of last year, it felt like it basically, nobody knew about it, who didn't already care about it until we started seeing violence. And, and so until we started seeing like prisoners actually fighting the prison administration and, and the guards. And that is an incredibly dangerous, deadly positioned to put prisoners into. So, so is there, are there things that we can be doing out here that can help other people more in the mainstream know about these struggles without having to necessarily get to that point of, of violence?
Speaker 7Well, um, absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, and to clarify though, like, um, the, uh, the, at the ninth, there was very little like actual violence except that that was initiated by administrations against, um, particular institutions where they had mass demonstrations in the yard, like in Kinross, Michigan.
Speaker 5Right, right. And I, I didn't want to sort of imply that it was the prisoners who was initiating violence, but it was the only one violence happened that, that anybody else really started to pay attention.
Speaker 7This is, this is, uh, a perpetual problem because, um, prison is designed as an oblivion, like culturally and physically, um, no longer are even prisoners, um, like incarcerated near their home towns or cities. They're intentionally put out in the middle of nowhere. Culturally they're put out in the middle of nowhere. You know, if we were to basically analyze violence, you know, theoretical fashion between like the physical and the kinetic and interpersonal and then perhaps the structural, like the conditions that put ones in a purse, like a certain situation. And then like the epistemic, like the cultural conditions of, of bound that basically stripped someone of personhood and make them irrelevant and push them to decide like prisoners suffer all three. And the hardest to crack is actually that epistemic, that cultural one, the ideological war because it was like the, it's, there is a certain difficulty in getting news outside of facilities, but we can actually, we can actually do that. The main, the main roadblock is people on the outside even caring or um, you know, basically freeing themselves of basically a hedge demonic propaganda system and cultural system that basically says like, these prisoners shouldn't be heard from. They aren't people. Even people that offer rhetoric to the contrary in like literal terms, still feel that and operate that way, like within their being. So we see that even in my small administrative way when I men websites and I get access to the metrics for Facebook and we asked for a participation on phones. APPS are like Collin days to support a group of prisoners. I actually see the metrics of like who responds, it's next to nothing. It's texting, right? We're like, we're very much in the grips of a spectacular, it's spectacular, like a spectacle oriented culture that needs to be some splash to break through and like to engage on that kind of level to basically kind of pimped violence or overblow it or deploy hyperbole in order to grab attention. You know, it doesn't really pay off because we're basically one or butter. Seeing that same kind of consumptive cycle of nonsense and basically soul sucking culture like to, it wears off, you know, so basically the task of getting people to pay attention to actually recognize the relevance and then to even act on it entails basically building a longterm like radical culture of resistance, you know? And we would be able to exert even so much more pressure. Like even if the people that had promised, you know, within politicized people left, his people entered and it gets folks, you know, revolutionary if they had actually followed through on their promises. Like I said, yes, I will call in when called upon as, you know, as part of your like support or network in order to participate in a phone zap, which is a phone blast where basically two once a prisoner calls for it, you basically tie up an officer's phone, you know, of a prison with like nonstop phone calls in order to put this grievance like on the agenda. And it's essentially direct action where you basically disrupt the operations of an office to the point that it comes more cost effective for them to deal with the prisoner on a, a more equitable basis than it is to just continue to have their phone shut down. But even when we ask for that amount of stuff like nationwide, it's a perpetual battle. Yeah. Cause we're basically asking people who engage in politics as a hobby, not engaged in a survival struggle and they're also not surrounded by a radical culture of resistance, you know, so it's always the exceptional act in order to do this kind of, um, like small act of by calling in. So basically we've said about like, instead of like appealing or trying to like appeal to the culture or, you know, create juicy media that grabs attention. We've basically concentrated on that long term task, you know, not ceding any territory or any like tool that becomes available to us, you know, but, but basically keeping that as our priority. Like we'll, we'll take 20 people that do longterm work, over 50 people that will do work for a week and then bounce. Cause that's, that's no way to build revelation.
Speaker 5Right. And I think that a Taz parallels to what's happening on the outside where we see, you know, a million people go out into the streets in one day for a protest and then nothing happens after that. You know, we're, we're, we're, there isn't, there isn't a kind of like institutional, Longitudinal, um, action happening or consciousness happening.
Speaker 7Yeah. And, and no strategy there. And there are moments of performance where it's Simulacra and not actual strategy being discussed because that's actually hard. You know, that that's actually difficult. And it's basically a built and learn skillset, you know, and it's also the product that some people actually inherit generationally. So when when basically radical politics like remains mired as a youth sub culture, those lessons, those examples and that continuity that like and generational like lessons or actual like an integral backbone of actual community, when that is missing like there, there, there's, there's nothing to really compare or even like model yourself after in order to do real work, you know. So that's kind of like one of the particular and very overt and articulated tasks of our Oakland chapter, you know, basically not only like, like doing work on an abolitionist basis, we're not only doing work in terms of trying to push the IWW towards uh, a better race analysis. And the more, you know, actual horizontal and relevant like activity, we're actually addressing like really like social poverty where like the basically poverty of action and poverty of generational lessons and poverty of strategy. Like a huge part of our, our branches, activity branches very, you know, but ours is like, we have a very strong focus on internal political education, which is during mutual, which is I'm research and also theoretical but also very grounded in day to day work. You know, we on one point we will bail reform and the reorganization of incarceration. The next night we'll be doing like face to face, like a prisoner release support work outside the county jail, Korean people, food ride cigarettes, etc.
Speaker 3So the, the person listening to this podcast who lives somewhere in the coastal area of the bay area and therefore is close to the Oakland. I walk, um, what, what can or what, what would you call upon upon this listener to, to do if they wish to become involved in this struggle?
Speaker 7Okay. Um, one if you're in the immediate area and you want to put in real work on like a long term basis, we are actively recruiting, you know, but we're also very intentional about where we recruit and from and how we, um, we basically give preference to working class people. We give preference to people who have been incarcerated already and we also focus on like nonwhite populations and then you're basically guaranteed a voice and like within our organization there. But luckily like a lot of this work can be done remotely. Um, just in terms of like raising profile in terms of um, even donating to make this work possible. Every time we go out to Santa Rita, our county jail to do support work, it costs us 150 bucks and we spent 300 bucks a month. I'm just doing like just the most basic of solidarity work, you know. And that takes a lot out of our budget. I mean even just some money, even phones apps, you know, participating in the phone blasts and social media. Our reach is actually really small. Can considering the reach of like major outlets and like even like major left to salads, our reach is really small, which kind of explains like, you know, partially like why you know, it, it takes like a lot of concerted activity and basically preexisting inherited position in order to make an impact, you know, in, in popular media. And we basically have to build something alternatively. And our reach is actually pretty, pretty small. So if everyone just basically deputized themselves, you know, as being like a broadcaster of this information, we make it incredibly simple. We do two newsletters a month of basically the, the top stories and news you won't get anywhere else and excluding stuff that we get from inside and we broadcast it to as many people as possible. The, we give people a package to rebroadcast on like the relevant stuff. And then it's the stuff of people that are engaged, like in real work that strikes them as, as real. Um, in terms of actually contacting us, um, hit us on the Facebook page, Oakland, I walk, you can part of that audience become part of, um, we do more work off of social media than we do on, so I'm just throw us an email address and I walk that Oakland at Gmail and you will be part of like the big supporter email list and every, every newsletter, there's an avenue, you know, their stories for you to participate in. And there's a way of getting involved, you know, and if anybody's in the bay area, especially the summer, even if your students or you know, it's teachers that got the summer off, you know, there's a ton, a ton of stuff that's going to be popping off this summer. And Franklin were seriously shorthanded. So if any lives in the bay area and even just wants to put up posters, who wants to like even serve food at like a social event in the park or like, or anything, you know, anything, you know, the August 19th is basically the date at the end of the summer. That's a national week of action. That's basically like the attempt of the prisoner movement to push themselves back on the front page again all summer long.
Speaker 5All right. So since, since the election of Trump back in November, uh, basically every leftist organization has seen just a massive explosion in interest and a membership. So what has, uh, uh, I walk and the Iww, both on a broader level and a more local, regional level, uh, how have you guys, a sort of interfacing with the, the leftest that, that had sort of grown in, in recent, in recent months? Like where, where, where do you see yourself right now fitting into that, that sort of like broader leftist revival and, um, how do you see the best way of, uh, making sure that you, you're not like sort of forgotten and that, you know, the, the struggle of prisoners is, is really a boosted to the level that I think it should be.
Speaker 7Yeah. Well, um, we were kind of already up and running, you know, um, when, when people panicked, you know, at the election when there was that sudden like, I dunno, shift in consciousness and you know, kind of urgency that enter the discourse. Um, except that, uh, so we got, we got some attention and we've got tons of invites to present and he was like, when people looked around town, it's like, what material? Like organizing projects that are focused on mass organizing, like exist in the radical spectrum. And we look around town in the bay area and it, it, it's, uh, there's not much there. There wasn't much of that, but yeah, no, I mean they'll always be there. Like the culture is certainly there, but for people that basically don't want to become part of a cult, there was very little to actually get involved in except like, um, like big explosive events that are all too like readily co-opted or manipulated by mainstream, you know, institutionally aligned, you know, leftist or nonprofits. Um, and our work is like intentionally longterm. So in some of the I walk piece, I mean also it's, it's a lot of educational work even to just, um, because now people are really focused on Antifa and like the outrights offensive like on communities and the immigration, um, you know, stuff. And, um, we've had a more fertile collaboration with a Spanish speaking communities and, uh, like the ice facilities going on hunger. Strike that, that dovetails quite easily with the kind of the Trump era. Um, in terms of like the, the larger response, there is a huge like educational task just to get people to like link these dots. They're there basically. And also that people reacting in fear to Trump like this. It's kind of, I kind of split it into two groups. It's like one the populations that have always suffered under the boot of America, just like gritting their teeth. It's like, oh my God, here's more of the same group is like Bailey's populations. Like clutching their heart and saying, oh my God, it's the end of America. There's a coming dystopia it, which is completely racist formulation that basically denies 500 years of lived experience on this content under a bloody genocidal, you know, American settler colonial project and the fact that like towards a future dystopia as the motivator for like action right now. You know, when people who have been basically living this dystopia for 500 years, you know, it looks like also not recognizing the rise and like use of like white paramilitary and vigilante violence. They all right. And the skinheads and the clan like coming out of the closet. And of all the taboos being thrown away and Andy Cinema Semitism like, you know, being out in the open, like there's, there are cycles to these things and there's a relationship to the state. It is not the precursor of a forthright, you know, not to discount the possibility of everything any worse. Cause I mean that's quite true, but the fact that there's a cyclical nature of the rise of like white pair of military violence and terrorism, whether it be after reconstruction or in the 20s or in response to the civil right movement or no ladies nineties when the Klan teamed up with skinheads and the rise of the Patriot movement to this current moment, there are various like engines driving. It's white violence and it's basically white economic instability and liberation movements gaining ground. These are the two engines that drive these things. So we're basically, I walked as basically combatting both of those things, you know, but on a longterm basis. So we don't have really a short term pitch to like kind of grab people out of this thing. I mean, once people get tired of symbolism and like marching around and like want material work, that's the people who actually had come to our group and I lock, you know, the folks that actually stepped out and stick stick or the folks that are basically tired of the bullshit of the left. And um, the, the more, the more higher profile like advanced that, you know, for one, I'm not a wobbly yet, but um, for, for various reasons. But, um, the, the practice of the IWW far outstrips like, it's theory on paper. The opposite of other revolutionary formations. Like usually revolutionaries, we'll have like a quiet develop political line. They'll have a, you know, a huge focus on articulation and theory and you know, say all this good shit and you know, blah, blah blah. But when it comes to practice, there's nothing on the ground is the opposite. It generated solidarity networks. It's generated a prisoners union. It's generated the general defense committees, the Gdcs, which are now operating as umbrellas for like mass organizing for antifascists, you know, work in like multiple cities around the country and they've like exploded in numbers. They're the real, they're the real story of like the Iww, like, um, you know, rise to relevance in this current moment is the Gdcs, you know, and do you know, I mean you said you were a wobbly, but as everyone, your listeners kind of acquainted with the wobblies and the GDCs
Speaker 4yeah,
Speaker 3I feel like I should be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they might be. So just, just a general brief brief overview. I feel like you've already kind of touched a little bit on it. The GDC is kind of the, not, not strictly antifa arm, but it supports as necessary anti antifascist anti oppression
Speaker 4mm.
Speaker 7Stuff. That's, it's basically a template that the 30 preexisted. It had been called into being twice before, like once in the 70s. And the wants in the 20s or the General Defense Committee were, um, were committees that were like, um, like parallel or semiautonomous to like local industrial union branches that were, I'm much more wider in focus and much more wider in membership, but focused on generalized community defense. Whether it be eviction defense, whether it do, or there'd be like a defending your food supply, whether it'd be like defending people from attack on the street or whether it be fighting back like para military, like you know, Pinkerton's or like, or fascist or clan on the states. And the GDC was basically brought back into circulation recently and their numbers, like I know in Minneapolis it's gone from like five people to 130 in the space of a year. Basically GDCs are
Speaker 4okay
Speaker 7and an excellent umbrella. There's already kind of existing process and respect for horizontal isn't. There's already a certain legacy and expectation and kind of like points of unity behind them. And they were like ready to go. And they also keep organizing approach rather than either symbolic, you know, a nonsense or a beer the other direction into like, um, like only confrontation and physical violence, you know, but with no focusing on mass organizing, the GDC that actually proved to be an excellent umbrella group in which to participate as part of coalitions in these different cities in order to fight back like the public face of the right, you know, a, whether it be Charlotte, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Austin, you know, et cetera. You know, the bay area really needs one.
Speaker 3I've, I've heard rumblings about a GDC in the bay area, but I have yet to actually find the source of the rumblings. Um, I, I do feel like we, I feel we as a podcast, do you need some, some episodes about, about that and about antifascist organizing, but, um, is there anything, I mean, I want to thank you for, for joining us and this interview is that, are there any final or any additional thoughts that you'd like to, to pop in?
Speaker 7MMM. I'd like to pop in one little plug for, um, something that was quite surprising that we managed to pull off. And that, um, we basically focused on internal political education is kind of a fundament of our group in terms of like making space for these political and strategic conversations and what they've basically evolved into our like a research and like analytical a practice that's like building on every, every, every seminar like leads to the next. And it's actually, it's being able to produce and actually group bright. Um, I can an analytical piece that, that got some publication nationwide call on the closing of Rikers island. And, um, so I kind of want to urge that on any groups that do the work that they make political education one a fundal like, and make sure it's a mutual thing. Like not that hierarchical pedagogy where there's an expert and then this transmits information to like receiving, you know, vessels, that's a dead end. But a mutual political education is basically the only way you can maintain a strategic redder and in general. And for us, it's not only paying off in terms of, uh, increased internal rigor, but we're actually producing original critique and analysis that, that no one else is, you know, and, and so I would encourage people to read our piece in the closing of Rikers on our blog. I walked oakland.wordpress.com and the closing of Rikers and, and they're like, take political education seriously, because if you can't actually articulate what it is you're attempting to do, I think people should just basically stop. I'm the full hall. Unless you can actually articulate a strategy, you're not actually pushing struggle forward.
Speaker 5Right. Well, and, um, one more thing that I'm constantly is, you know, I personally come from a bourgeois managerial class and, and I'm personally ineligible to be a wobbly myself. Uh, you mentioned that you personally were not a wobbly. Um, the first part of this is, um, what, what is the, what is the actual sort of, um, structural difference between the wobblies and, and the I walk and how does, how does someone like me, uh, help out, not Justin and I walk, but, but help to support wobblies or, or is that a question that is basically a moot point. I just have to step back and let the Iww do its own thing and do my own thing. You know where I am.
Speaker 7Well, um, GDC membership is a thing unto you know, it can if you want to join, I walk. Um, we, we basically recently sorted out like membership requirements and expectations and um, we basically in Oakland formed a chapter with, with receiving no template or guidance except for like general principles. So we basically built something from nothing and um, which didn't include like mandatory IWW membership. Um, and, and now it's become a little more solidified and that it's basically anchored so network and the wobblies by a certain number of, of red card holders. Like I, he, uh, wobblies like members. But, um, you don't have to be a wobbly to get down with Iowa. Um, for a variety of reasons. Like one, a thick Hussey and like expanding your reach for the organizing. Um, and to like this is about pushing struggle forward, not about evangelizing for a single organization. It's, you know, it's an interesting and pushing the struggle forward, which means like focusing on organizing not organization. So I mean under the eye, under the lobby bench, that's, that's, that's exactly how you could operate. I mean, and if you wanted to get it in, it depends on like what, what angle you're coming from. If he wanted to get down with prisoners, like, like work there, there's actually a, you know, in terms of we kind of do grantedly do something unique. You know, there aren't many organizations out there that actually helped prisoners organized on the inside and do it collectively. There was a big hole there, you know, in terms of like the prisoners that Alec was able to fill. So if you really want to get into that, like yeah, we're about the only like shop around only organization in town that's really focused on that. There are some others like um, you know, CCW p California Coalition for women prisoners does work with women inside the prisoner hunger strikes, solidarity coalition. I does primarily outside support but has like a lot of legal work and support going on to the inside. But most of the prison stuff is like advocacy on the outside unless you're basically a pen pal organization. But if you were interested more in like, you know, radical revolutionary unionism, you know, basically you'd have to give up your ability to hire and fire. Um, I take it, I mean, but also I think that's a kind of arbitrary, I think that's one of these things that I kind of chased that keep me from joining the wobblies yet we're kind of negotiating my whole attitude towards the IWW and like these kind of arbitrary like delineations I think are a little archaic and haven't really like changed or adapted to the shifts in like the Organization of Labor. You know, because to tell you the truth, when I was framing a carpenter like I had, I mean I technically didn't have the ability to hire and fire, but if I said the word, some people was off the crew cause I was lead, you know. So there's does that exclude me from being, you know like in the wobblies, the strict idea that was formed like on the shop floor that there's like management and then there's just like a giant sea of worker,
Speaker 3you know, and then that's who the revolution of subject is. Like the recent reorganizations, then de industrialization and the amount of people doing their own hustles, like that whole like dividing line of who should be a wobbly and who isn't I think is obsolete personally. So if you're up to you could be, you could join. Well that's good to know. All right, well thank you very much and we'll make sure that uh, the rest of our comrades have all your public, uh, um, uh, information and contacts and all that kind of stuff. So we'll put links in that in the, in the show notes. So thank you. I'll send you all the propaganda for the August 19th coming up too. Excellent. Thank you. Right on. All right, wonderful interview. So now to close it out, if you for some reason with to hear more of my crap on Twitter, I am at commune all source to keep up with left coast podcast on Twitter. It is left-pad. Oh, so you get a lot of my shit posting, uh, to keep up with DSA North Bay. It is at DSA, northbay on Twitter and at Facebook. And if you have feedback, suggestion, ideas, funny pictures. Do you want to scream at us? You want to yell at us, scream at us in a textual format. You can reach us@leftcoastpodcastatgmail.com we also maintain a small subreddit on Reddit, which you should never go to except for this cause. Red is bad. Uh, reddit.com/r/left coast,
Speaker 10get us, get back to us with the criticism, feedback. Just let us know your, if you're listening and with that, stay safe. Stay active. Thank yourselves. Well, comrades and well hydrated and well hydrated.