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Left Coast Media
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I was kind of mad because he put a tweet, like I don't even understand what cultural Marxism is like. And so I just explained it the best I could and I got like barely any response. Sub tweeting via podcast. You're not petty at all, Eric.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1All right. Welcome comrades to the left coast podcasts. Um, it's going to be just the host today, so, uh, it's going to be myself, Tiberius, Krokus,
Speaker 3myself, communal sauce. And Aaron, I hope that you weren't expecting an amazing guest this episode. If you were then somebody written the description wrong.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, there was an amazing guest every episode because I'm in this show. Yes. Eighties. All of us, we all combined most of the type areas. Maybe the good guest was inside us all along. Yes. Uh, we have actually quite a few things to talk about today and I think I'm, one of the first things I want to touch on was none of us was definitely at the rally and Berkeley. Let's get that out of the way.
Speaker 3None of us went to Berkeley. Well, no, actually there is photographic evidence of my being in Berkeley. I was somewhere around that area, like observing what happened. So, but none of us participated in anything.
Speaker 1I know sometimes you need milk and eggs and like you gotta go, you know, run errands. Sometimes you're in Berkeley, happens. Putin's lying. That's all I gotta say. Um, yeah. So why don't we get 'em why don't, for those comrades who haven't, uh, listened to or followed on Twitter, the 10,000 other people who also have podcasts and tweets about this, um, let's get a, let's just talk about what we sort of saw as what happened and the result afterwards, especially through, um, the corn cobs. Centrists Twitter.
Speaker 3So my perspective is effected by the fact that I was not in the city on Saturday in San Francisco on Saturday, but I was in Berkeley on Sunday and while I was running my errands, I was around the Lu group that left the surge groups that left from a park, the surge, a PTP and some other groups were in and they arrived the park, by the time they arrived at the park, I think all of the fashion, almost all of the fashion already left. But when they arrived there was a face off with the police. The police put on their gas masks, the http like broadcasting truck that had loudspeakers sad. You know, anybody who is not comfortable getting into a face off should move away. And eventually the cops stood down after pointing fucking tear gas grenade launchers in people's faces. It's always lovely to have that happen, to have cops like directly aim at your face and then come home and read shit from a police union organizer claiming that they are the good guy. It's love it. Love it so much.
Speaker 1Yeah. And that was, um, that was also when the crowd started chanting, uh, coal was it to put down the guns or gun down? Put The gun down. Yeah.
Speaker 3After the cops kind of stood down, um, everybody took the park. And a little bit after that, the main march arrived, which had been people who had been at the rally against hate across the city, marched, uh, that was tens of thousands. I don't know the actual number, but it was a big march, big, big march. And then in between there, there was, there was some scuffles, um, some actual fash kind of still hung around, came by. There is a story by a reporter who's camera got smashed. And in that story he says that he witnessed another reporters camera getting seized and smashed. And I recognized the quote unquote reporter that he was describing. And in my view from having seen him as I popped out of the shop after having gotten milk and eggs, he had a news microphone but he didn't have any of the actual sound gear because you know, if you have, if you, if you were out doing an outside broadcast or you're doing audio stuff, you will also have your, your, I am making a physical gesture to, to reference something that's kind of like a cross between a messenger bag and like a tote bag gym bag. You will have one of those that your audio recorder shit is in. And he didn't have that. And also he had that smug fucking look that fash always have on their faces at these kinds of things when they think that they're getting away with something.
Speaker 1Oh yeah. That uh, that, that shit eating grin where they're like, I'm totally trolling the normies.
Speaker 3Oh, Hahaha. So my belief is that the quote unquote reporter who got his camera seized and, and dealt with because he was trying to take pictures of the faces of Antifa that, that this guy was not actually news media and was using that as piss poor excuse to try and get material for doxing ANTIFA members. If you are press and for some reason you're listening to this or you're somebody who likes to take photographs and you want to take pictures of people at a protest, get their permission first. Because if you don't like, the best thing that can happen to you is that you get yelled at and people put shields or flags in front of your camera. It's not polite, it's not nice. It's not kind like ask permission first.
Speaker 1Also, the other side of that is that as anti fascists, uh, as you know, radical leftists, revolutionaries, we are assumed at the outset by the liberals and centrist to be the enemy.
Speaker 3And we are now officially at not we, they are now officially a domestic terrorism.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, Yay. Oh, it's all right. We'll join the struggle though. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, there is a component of that where you have to be conscious of the PR. That is not to say that you can never engage in acts of violence or property destruction. However, when you are attacking a reporter who's getting up in your face and being a little shithead, add a fascist rally, what that looks like to other people is that you're just attacking a reporter because you don't understand the difference between a liberal and a fascist. So that is, you know, and also there's, there's a very high bar in my opinion for when you, for when you strike another human being, like, I don't care about property destruction. That's not it. It's property, whatever. It's replaceable. But when you start attacking people, you have to have a very high bar for that. And um, you,
Speaker 3the fact that somebody looked and acted like fash isn't necessarily high enough to do more than just grab the camera and take the SD card out. Right,
Speaker 1exactly. Yeah. I think, uh, I think a lot of us over the weekend watch the contra points video on how to, it's, it was essentially a video on, you know, how to spot a fash uh, you know, what the, the way that they are covering and promoting their ideology and it goes into it. It lays it out in a way that is just so much better than I could. And I would just have to commend everybody to actually just go and watch the, the contra points video. And you're going to put that in the show notes. Right. And I'm going to put that in the show notes. Absolutely. Because I don't think I've watched it yet. Oh yeah. It's good. She's great. But yeah, so you, you do have to be, you, you do have to be very cognizant about the way that you interact with a quote unquote neutral observers, even if they are kind of undercover. Fash uh, you know, maybe the best thing isn't just to, you know, beat the camera out of their hand. I don't know. It's a tough situation. Well, the problem is that how many folks were there? I'm Mastin and all in black and there is going to be, there's always going to be a couple that are a little less restrained and that's what happened. Diversity of tactics. Sure, sure. And a lot of other folks tried to deescalate in certain situations and it seemed like such a success and such a great day and nothing really of note happened besides a lot of solidarity. But in the back of my mind I was just thinking, I wonder how the liberal press is going to cover this. And I was like, what are they going to focus on? And I saw a few events in theory from a Google earth. I was looking down, you know that I was like, ah, they're going to talk about that. But I was shocked at how much they twisted it around. They came in I think with a story that they already want to yes. And a lot of, a lot of that involved interviewing the white nationalists before they left the park and getting their story like earlier in the morning. For me, that wasn't shocking. What was shocking was the media response in the direct aftermath of Charlotte. And I, and I feel like people who were actually doing real reporting managed to get their stories out before their editors could fash it up. And, and this was a, so Charlottesville came out of basically nowhere for liberals. The rest of us, we saw that shit coming from a mile away. Like this is, this is the kind of shit that we had been like screaming at centrist and liberals about that they're not doing anything about. And then Charlottesville happened and all the centrists are like, Holy Shit, there are fascists. Like, oh, could have predicted this. Yeah. Nobody could have seen this coming. Well, I, Cassandra, they learned that like there are anarchists is not just people that bombed, you know, that started the FBI and like 1915 or whatever like that. There are radicals and some of those radicals are in black bloc, uh, on a Sunday. And some of them are down in Texas right now doing flood relief. Get you a block that can do both. Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, Eh, Antifa is a praxis. It's, it's not an organization, but, but so, so Charlottesville happened so fast and the in the liberal mind that the, you know, the standard media outlets really didn't have a whole lot of, they didn't have a whole lot prepared to counter narrative the, the situation. So, and when this happened in Berkeley, they were already prepared with their counter narrative. You, you saw a ton of, you know, all leftists, you know, the, the people who are, you know, seriously calling, uh, people who are left of center like farther left than left-of-center as moral equivalence to the alright, like you saw those people already gearing up for the, um, the way that they were going to paint the actions in Berkeley regardless of what happened. Because you, I mean, you get that many people together, it is almost impossible that nothing is going to happen. So they were just waiting to pounce on any opportunity for anybody, you know, any idiot on the street to slip up and do something that they shouldn't do.
Speaker 3Well, not only to slip up but be provoked by an agent provocateur of whom I, I know my comrades spotted at least one who was wandering around offering people shots of liquor. Yeah. On the Hashtag the resistance centrists who liberals who hate socialist small than fascists. It's interesting that back in the days of Gamergate, those, those days when everything was so simple, there was this screaming coming out about SJWs social justice warriors who a tone policing set who, uh, sang, you know, if you're having this, this argument or this disagreement, you, you have to be nice about it. Nice. And not in the way that I'm nice but nice in the way of you mustn't defend people. And now we've gotten to the point where it's not the Gamergate trolls complaining about SJWs doing that and also doing it themselves to try and stifle discussion. But now it's the centrists. It's kind of an inverse version of the fact that the centers come up with labels like all left and fake news and it gets used. Now it's the fringes come up with these tactics. They bubble into the center and presumably will come back right out to the edges again.
Speaker 4The other thing is no one's knocking on doors and pulling people out that they suspect to be alt right or a bit Fascia. This is like folks that are showing up to an explicitly antifascist rally, um, which takes a bit of coneys like a bit of like backbone and also a bit of conviction and anyone who goes to that length to go to like a fascist rally or to go to go to like a radical leftist. We're pissed off and, and we have our adrenaline pumping and probably a bit more testosterone than average situation to be honest. Um, and these people in my opinion, most probably political organizers, they are like doing stuff right for white supremacist, fascist groups like they are recruiting, they are doing PR by showing up with cameras and so they're bit more dangerous than the average. Just all right person. I'm a little bit confused. Um, so we're talking about, we're talking about the charts that show up to the alt right stuff, that they are going to be the militant out over fascist dangerous types. Russ. Yes. So this is my rebuttal to the argument that you can't just go around punching people you disagree with because I don't think that's happening. I think basically the message on that day was this is a space in this park. We don't want any Nazi's to come in this space. And if someone does being, you know, with a whatever, then we're going to assume that that's exactly what they are because that was the messaging. Um, and also most people that are outright that are just kind of, you know, have horrible political points of view aren't going to show up. Or if they show up, they're going to take off that tee shirt as soon as somebody told to them. And they're going to claim though, I was just doing it for the lols. So, so, so the point is like these are not just your average people that we disagree with. Um, and then the other thing is that it just drives me nuts is has anyone gone to the hospital because of Antifa? Has anyone had more than maybe a bloody nose? I don't even think Richard Spencer knows blood. Did we ever actually find out whether Alaska actually maced himself or whether it was somebody else who maced him in the face because he claimed that he went to, okay. So there's that. Um, uh, just the way that we speak about violence, I don't think that that's a good argument because
Speaker 1we have sent people to the hospital. For example, there was a reporter in Boston, no, not Boston, maybe Charlottesville, something like that. Who, who was getting up in a bunch of, uh, antifascists face trying to record them and they were trying to, these guys are trying to get the reporter to go away and uh, one of them ended up striking the reporter and he had a nasty gash in his head and had to get stitches. Like that's a thing that happened. Yeah. When, when we do confront the fashion, the street, sometimes there are going to be injuries and casualties. You know, there was, we saw a death but we also saw like for example, last year in uh, Sacramento 10 antifascists were stabbed. And that's, that's kind of what I'm saying though, right? But, but the, at the same time, that doesn't mean that we are nonviolent and aren't going to react and won't and we'll refrain from sending someone to the hospital if we think that it is in ourselves and in our self defense interest to do so. So that is not that, I don't think that that specifically like, oh, how many people have antifa killed. Oh, agreed. Agreed. Um, but, but the difference is that we are not, uh, either advocating or committing systemic violence against a group of people for something that they cannot control. What we are doing is standing up in self defense against people who do act like that. And that is, that is what I think is the fundamental difference there is, yes, there is violence on both sides, but it is a, um, it is morally naive to conflate violence or a fascist violence with antifascist violence. The two are not morally the same. And so I think that that is, I think that that is the, the stronger argument to make sure.
Speaker 4Sure. Um, I suppose the facts on the ground mattered to me because of how people are speaking about it. And as far as I know, antifascists are not showing up with, with, um, [inaudible], um, they have not stabbed anyone yet. And I, I don't doubt that there's going to be escalation.
Speaker 3That was, it was a guy who claimed that he got stabbed by antifascists, but, um, then then they pulled his credit card receipts or they pulled surveillance cameras or something and saw him, him himself buying the knife that he was supposedly snapped by. So what happened was he bought a knife and stabbed himself and then blamed it on. Right. Antifa
Speaker 1um, redneck revolt are absolutely showing up what they are fifteens okay. That's awesome. Um, that's true. Yeah. Um, shout out to redneck revolt. Yes. It's comrades are doing fantastic work.
Speaker 3I, I do get, I do get where you're going with this around, it's just, it's a, it's a pity that we keep pulling out receipts.
Speaker 4Well, I still, I still think that we're not an organized like para military force and it's just weird to be talked about as a terror domestic terrorist group when so far we've punched people and the eye point, and I think I put this on the Internet, is like you go to a, a high stake sporting event and people get punished for having the hat of the other team and no one says you're a terrorist and so's. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3The thing with, with Antifa is that it's not a collective movement. It's not a group. It's people that end up in the same place with the same aim. Yeah. There is no, you know, as far as I know, there are no meetings. I haven't been invited to any meetings, but then again, I wouldn't be because I don't participate in this kind of thing. Um, so the, that happen the, when antifascists and fascists clash, um, a lot of the actions that happen is based on individuals. Yeah. Like their own moral guidelines for what is, what is acceptable in their mind. For example, I were, I to be attacked, I would attempt to defend myself, but uh, I am not very good at it, so I probably would flail, cry and then run away. But if somebody else were attacked who was better at that, they might actually successfully defend themselves.
Speaker 4All right. I guess to boil it down, I think there's a difference in the mindset of the two sides and that one side would not want to line folks up against the wall. Do you know what I mean? Even though that's a running joke, I think the way that we conceptualize violence is a bit different that it's self defense, um, as opposed to cleansing or purging. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that could change. Um, I feel like I think it's going to change for me personally, I feel like the Antifa reaction right now and just the kind of way that radicals are organizing and, and stirring shit up is the only sane reaction to what's going on. I feel like hand wringing and equivocating is fucking crazy because the titanic is sinking. Like you look around and people are trying to say, describe it in a way that's just sort of in a, in a university setting almost. Let's look, listen to both sides. No, we should all be freaking the fuck out.
Speaker 3Yeah. This, this isn't, as I read after Charlottesville, you know, this is not the time to sit on the sidelines because I mean out of pure self interest, you yourself are a target. Yeah. You may not be the first target because you may not be black, you may not be gay, you may not be Jewish, but you absolutely will be a target. They eat their own. Why would they not eat you?
Speaker 4Well, yeah. And actually that reminds me, um, my thing about the violence on both sides of, I should have clarified the whole point of that was that they have killed a few of us. And in Portland those folks got stabbed for stepping in. Um, these people kill they murder. Um, so that's, that's sort of why people are reacting the way they are. And I'm in every situation where there was a fascist, um, cool. And, uh, uh, nation had been taken over by a fascist government. It's the leftist that war, um, massacred first always. I mean the Nazis killed all the communists way before they started rounding
Speaker 1up other ethnic groups. Um, Spain, Italy, um, Indonesia, Chile, Argentina. Well, because we're the ones who aren't going to be quislings who rolled over for the fascists who want to get into power. We're not going to, we understand their dog whistles, we understand where they're headed to. We, we see what they're trying to do and we are not going to be a part of that. And they stand so opposed to everything that we stand forward that we fight them at every opportunity. And so we are the, the spiky his thorn in their side.
Speaker 3So two things for that one. Is it really pronounced that way? I thought it was quisling but I do pronounce things wrong. I've literally never heard it pronounced. Okay. We could both be wrong. It might be a silent Q or something and that they were, uh, we will look it up at some point and old people will email us and tell us that we're completely wrong too. For those of you who like me are of a certain melancholy slash morbid disposition, one benefit to being a leftist is at least you won't have to stick around and suffer if the fash come to power because you will be one of the first against the wall because communists fight, fascists, socialists, leftists, whatever. Yeah. Liberals either become fascist or become collaborators. Thank you. Yes. And every one of those countries I named, that is what happened there. That meme of liberals get the bullet too, which I'm not a big fan of that meme because you know it's, it's not, I have liberal friends, they're not all bad, but we can think of it. You can think of it in a different fashion. Liberals will get the bullet from the fash too, unless they completely surrender any, any tiny amount of backbone that they got that they have. Right. And I mean I imagined that in these situations a lot of liberals saw the um, the fork in the road and went on in the right direction. It's usually too late. It's one of those things where you can claim that you're neutral on something, right? But when you are remaining neutral, you are actually making a decision. And that decision, the fact that you are able to remain neutral is, is part of part of your privilege. Right? There's death squads roaming around and tortured stadiums. I just don't know which side is worse. Well, one side is killing people, the and, or advocating for killing people. The other side is advocating for punching people and advocating for redistribution and advocating for everybody to have. What they need. And I think that it's not exactly a difficult choice. Okay. So race, everything I in that previous
Speaker 4segment and just replace it with split sauce just said, oh no, it's staying in. Um, yeah, so there's um, there's that and then there's also Hashtag Dsa cop
Speaker 3funny to Tom Tay
Speaker 4can, can I just say on the previous subject for anyone who wasn't there Sunday was an amazing day. It was so inspiring and I've never seen that much solidarity, different groups. I mean, um, it was amazing. And if you go, if you show up to one of these things, you will be surprised at how different it is from how the Washington Post op eds portray it. And you will probably be swayed to one side
Speaker 3and you will probably be surprised at how different it is from the flipping pussy hat marches and stuff that there is, there is a real solidarity at these things that you would not see at stuff like the rally to restore sanity, which I know we will miss those days when we use your tax return. Yeah. Yeah. So a DSA call, rather DSA cult organizer, because we've been joking about how DSA elected a cop to NPC and people who have run with that and started either believing that he's a cult all believing that we believe that he's a cop. He's an organizer for cleat. He's a cochair of Dsa Austin. Um, and this week he put out his own minority statement on the NPC vote and the, the subject of the email that he sends out includes two commas in a row. He is accidentally become weird Twitter. Um, if both of you read his, honestly, I have not. No, you should. He is extremely red, mad a nude and offline, but hating everybody who's online and shitting on them for not being real organizers. And he refers to himself in the third person. Hmm.
Speaker 4I hadn't really, doesn't surprise me. I mean, look at all the stuff that we have learned about how Dsa Austin functions and you know, that's his actions in that light aren't surprising because apparently he was essentially the one who created DSA. Awesome.
Speaker 3He's had, uh, three coaches in something like, as many years. And having listened to the audio of how he conducted a meeting and having heard about some of the things that, that he did at meetings with the social media team. Um, I'm, I'm not surprised that you sent this out. I'm, I'm saddened, I'm disappointed. Like the, the day after we elected the NPC, if he had come out and said yes, I worked for cleat. Yes, I came out of retirement to work for them, but, and then explained his position and you know, why he didn't disclose, which was the main thing that we were feeling misled. This could have been a teachable moment. This could have been an opportunity to really have a dialogue and, and learn. But instead it has become one guy and, and his supporters in Austin who are making Facebook tweets at Facebook posts about other people in the chapter being dead to them and no longer being invited to Thanksgiving events because they don't support Danny. Um, it's become this small group versus, versus a larger group that is extremely online and then a bunch of other people who just don't know what the fuck is going on.
Speaker 1Yeah. For myself, I really don't have any, like, I don't care about Danika Tonto. I literally just don't give a shit about him. What I care about. And the thing that makes me mad is the response from the rest of DSA national and mostly momentum people. Um, who all of momentum, not all the momentum, no, but one of the men's, yes. A most of our elected onto the MPC that were elected onto the NPC and, and their willingness to like, even just setting aside the fact that, that he was organizing a highly reactive and oppressive force in society, that, that he was actively working to make them stronger at the same time while making the rest of us a weaker, but that, that's what he was doing.
Speaker 3Okay.
Speaker 1Just setting that aside, the fact that, you know, once, once we learned about who he was and, and once all of this stuff happened, the, the overwhelming response from the grassroots of the party of DSA, it's not a party. It's an Ar. Yes, I know. But the overwhelming majority of people really were either kind of not okay with it or were actively angry about it and their response was to say, don't do anything. This isn't your decision. It was, it was, uh, it was a hell of a lot of like just a really soft authoritarian talk. That is what makes me the angriest about the situation. If this had happened and NPC seeing the response from the grassroots said, all right, we don't agree but we're going to follow the lead of our membership and you know, uh, forced him off or whatever. Whatever the, they feel that they could do about it. A special convention hold a special convention, you know, recount or um, uh, uh, you know, cashed out for votes or, or revolts or whatever their they want to do. Then
Speaker 3what ever that I would say whatever the membership,
Speaker 1yes, sorry that that is the day I'm referring to. Yeah. Then it would have just been this thing that happened and it was going to be a joke and you know, no real issue would've come out of that. It would have just, it really just would have been, hey guys, you remember that time that we, we elected a cop to NPC. Oh ha ha ha. Wasn't that funny. Now it's actually gotten to a point where where people are talking about dues strikes, it's become a crisis. It's, it has become a crisis and it has become a crisis because of the way that NPC has acted. And if you too
Speaker 3feel that this issue has shown just how short DSA, um, as a whole in terms of both the national structure and, and a lot of the, the bylaws and rules is short on accountability and transparency. That is a working group. It is the DSA accountability working group and it is at least 250 DSA members. We are, I've outed myself. I'm a member. Uh, we, um, meeting and working have been working every evening, every day on trying to find a solution for this, trying to find ways to make DSA and make NPC especially more accountable and more transparent and to deal with deal with this on the national level. I personally also feels that there is an issue within the chapter within Austin, a DSA Austin, but that, that is not something that members outside of Austin have any any right to be involved with that something for Austin to deal with themselves or for the NPC to use that trustee ship Palo or something if if Austin members ask them to. Yeah,
Speaker 1I had a lot of reservations initially about the situation when it was unfolding, but the way that this man has been acting kind of swayed me completely. I mean he is acting like a cop so I don't have any problem calling him a cop at this point because the guy, it's just surprising to me. And how obliviously is to how he looks. Well, the thing is it's not, um, it's not that he's oblivious, it's just that the, the entire culture of the entire, you know, police culture is that it doesn't matter how they look to other people. Right. They don't have to care because they have, they ultimately have untouchable authority over the rest of us. You know, they can, they can treat us like garbage and basically get away with it because they have that kind of authority and that culture breeds highly authoritarian. People like Danny for Tante [inaudible] like he, I don't doubt that he is very good at organizing. I don't doubt that he has a lot that he can bring to Dsa and his local chapter. However, he still has not, he still has yet to renounce the work that he has done to strengthen police over the working people to strengthen beliefs over the communities that they're policing. And he still, he still has not renounced his authoritarianism. If he does that, I am very happy to, to, you know, welcome him with open arms as a comrade and say, we need people like you who have these long years of experience in organizing. Let's, let's find out what we can do to work together. It's just, it's, it's sad for me and entirely unsurprising that that isn't happening and I really doubt that it ever will.
Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. My worry was that people that have years of organizing experience because of the state of the left and the state of unions in the past 30 40 years are all going to be tainted to one degree or another. And you have a bunch of very young, inexperienced new leftists criticizing and purging and finding themselves without any experience to draw from. And I don't think that's happening. So my worry has been quelled by the fact that this is a unique situation, not unique in that I'm sure any other cleat organizers or police organizers will behave in the same manner, but that, um, everyone's reaction is justified. Um, I wonder if the way, I guess the momentum folks and a lot of the folks that don't want to do anything outside of the rules is what their cover is, right? If they're worried about splitting up DSA an early point, because the way the left has functioned in the last 30 40 years has been fractionalizing fractionalizing um, okay, well we'll split because we disagree about this and they're trying to hold it together. The irony is I think they're doing the opposite of what they're trying to do. You think that's part of their intention is like we have to, we have a big mass of leftist multitenancy we have to keep them together but doing it in entirely the wrong way. Well yeah, they like making people leave.
Speaker 1Yeah. I, yeah, I say that I don't think their intention in the way that they have conducted themselves is specifically about preventing the organization from fractionalizing necessarily. I think it is more about trying to, um, trying to defend against this fear of purchase. Right. That that's the big, that's a big thing that they, they constantly say that they're worried about is that what this would set a precedent? Yes. For, um, for future purges and kind of, it does. That's why we need a robust recall procedure. Exactly. And that's, so that's the thing, like if, if the way that the system, if you're afraid that the way that the system is set up now prevents you from doing something that, that you and the rest of the organization at a grassroots level think is, is something that is necessary. And good to do, but has moral hazards down the road, which you do is you, then you do the thing and then you sit back and reevaluate the structure and the rules and the regulations and say, why is this creating a moral hazard? And is there a better way to do it? It is not to not do the thing that you have to do now for fear of a moral hazard in the future. The fear of splitting or purging would be because of procedural precedents, socio credit, consent, democracy. Now.
Speaker 3So I've been a little bit quiet and that's been because I was trying to pull up Danny for Tonto statement. Uh, and I would like to read for you the, the last three paragraphs of his statement, which are a work of art. What is amazing about DSA is the large number of Internet bullies and Internet know it alls. We have attracted the Internet bullies who act tough behind a keyboard. But I've never been hit by a Billy club, never been in a street fight, never fought scabs on a picket line and never been arrested. No. How to threaten a person's family anonymously, but are scared to let their neighbors know they are socialists. These internet bullies only know how to fight in a computer game. The Internet, no. It like to make profound statements in perfect English. The know it alls have accumulated their knowledge from textbooks and internet essays, the know it alls have hardly lived spending their lives on campus and in coffee shops with laptops, iPhones and tablets. One of these supposed know it alls was surprised to find out that they are black police associations, both the Internet bullies and know it alls. Have no respect for knowledge learned in life, no respect for folks who've lived real struggle and have built real organizations the bullyism know it. Want to write and talk about revolution and organization without Arthur block walking or phone banking. These folks show utter contempt for regular people who do the living in this world. Why they sit behind their computers and act superior there. That is definitely a statement that will build solidarity. Danny, thank you. I don't know whether that's true.
Speaker 1No. But they're just, they're just literally my, my arms are not long enough to yeah. To an act. The jerk off motion that is in my heart. Right.
Speaker 4Well, yeah. And this guy is like an actual bully. Yeah.
Speaker 3There are some extremely online people for whom this has been an amazing opportunity for them to, to tweet a lot. And I know I have tweeted a lot about it. Um, hopefully I'm not one of those internet bullies, but if I was somebody who isn't Danny, please tell me.
Speaker 1I think anybody who criticizes Danny is an internet bully in Danny's eyes.
Speaker 4Sure. And also like he basically pulled the, I have a black friend then. You're right. I glossed over that. What does that have to do with anything? We all understand that. Um, and, okay. And then he was his family threatened? I don't believe that it is possible. Sure. I, I, I guess in 30,000 people there's always going to be something like that. Or maybe someone took a harsh tone. He interpreted it that way. But for the most part, I don't know. I don't think he has a right to claim that, you know, not, not the family but like just the whole, I'm a victim and I'm a regular person. Like cause he's done a lot of damage. And um,
Speaker 3I was going to say I do not understand how he is doing this but unfortunately I do understand but personally if, if this had been me and I had found out like the day after I was elected that this many people were upset about something that I had done, I would have stepped down immediately. Same extremely. How can you look at the number of people that are genuinely hurt and upset about this and the damage that it is doing to the organization and believe that your position on this 16 person group that we are trying to make sure it has very little power is more important than a 26, 20,000 member organization. How, how can you justify that, Dani, please? How can you justify this feeling that you, um, more important than everybody in the organization that wants you to please step down?
Speaker 1It is not only an issue in within the internal politics of the organization, it is also an issue in DSA is a work and outreach into other groups that are specifically targeted and harassed and oppressed by the cops more than, you know, you're white people are.
Speaker 3I didn't necessarily want to want to touch on that because every time I do somebody comes and says, well can you prove it? Can you prove that this has hurt our ability to organize? And yes, I know that that was one black lives matter organizer who had, who was recorded with some words for Dsa, but apparently that's not enough evidence.
Speaker 1Yeah. And we have been, if we take people at their words, there have been a lot of people on Twitter who in the wake of this has said, yes, I have a hard time convincing some people in black lives matter or other black and Latinex communities that, that this is not what DSA stands for. DSA is not, it is, doesn't see cops as a worker in the sense that other people are, they are, um, like a part of the explicit theory of the organization is that the police are the managers of capital that, that they are anti working class. Yeah. And, and having fatality on NPC undermines that. Yes.
Speaker 4And also just the bully. How many times did you say internet bully? That's so lame. I'm sorry. Like be it be a grownup. Um, but as far as the Internet, no, it all thing, it sucks because I've often had that beef, the same one that he's writing about. Um, I, I think he's using it in the wrong direction, but I, I feel one might say just so we're, um, we have things to rebut. Unions are, um, at this point, majority people of Color, a lot of them and the, this type of educated professional class leftist that is in a social bubble that does not really know how to reach out to other demographic groups because they don't know how to relate to them and they don't have overlapping social circles. And that, um, a lot of people are aware of that. And the solution is through unions because unions are, um, the best way to help working class folks. And also if we organize with them, we start to build social relations and stuff. And so from that statement, I imagine, you know, he's saying you're bashing all this union experience and um, you should be using it or cherishing it. Um, which is a manipulative way of kind of polarizing the issue, especially because he's not special,
Speaker 3not the only one with the union or exactly around. Yeah. He has done a lot of organizing and he was responsible for a lot of growth in Dsa Austin. And in the past I said, you know, we need to honor that and we need to given the, for what he's done to build Dsa Austin. But now I look at the way that Dsa Austin operates that he has what he has built. And I, I really hope that the members can, can salvage, could salvage it because I mean, I'm, I've never been to a meeting. All I have is and recordings, but that is not a chapter that I would want to be a part off or if I was a part of, I would be working so damn hard to try and fix it.
Speaker 4Yeah. I mean from everything that we've seen, they are like the exact opposite of our chat.
Speaker 3Yeah. Cause they're also a chapter and not an Osi. So yeah.
Speaker 4Um, so yeah, I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a, a police organizer on the MPC is going to hurt our ability to reach out to certain marginalized groups. But I think a way to remedy that would be through union organizers. So it's sort of a tricky thing because I wonder if people are going to have, you know, strictly or mostly union organizing experience. People like a bad taste in their mouth for them.
Speaker 3I mean I do know what you mean. I, I think that if you are reaching out to people who are doing union organizing work, part of pot of getting to know them would be finding out the kinds of groups of workers that they've organized. And when Danny talked about organizing workers, he referred to cops as state workers. He was not specific. Jesus Christ. He was not specific about the type of work is that he had organized. So
Speaker 4unions in the same way like they talk about like can we get bazookas and stuff
Speaker 3and support laws that make it legal to run over at protests. Just like Clete has come out in support of loss like that and, and um, prevent, uh,
Speaker 4prosecutors or attorneys or anybody from interviewing a cop who has shot someone for like three or four days.
Speaker 3What you are saying about that we need to focus on union organizing at gas to counteract this, but also we need to focus on the local level. Um, you know, I personally am doing some, some vague national stuff in work groups, which is pulling me away from focusing on the local. So I, I am very grateful for everybody else to be able to, to do that. But locals are where the power should reside and will reside. And any of you that are in Dsa, even if you have one foot out of the door, please try and do what you can to build the power of your local. And if your locals power is not distributed and your local is not working in a way that you are comfortable with. If you, for some reason half a centralist the democratic centralist a DSA or something like that, see what you can do about fixing it or maybe changing locals if that is, if you're privileged enough to have been an area where you have multiple locals but, or you know, fully embraced the Annika is lifestyle and just find an affinity group. But please don't give up on the, because of this.
Speaker 1Also, um, you know, if, if you're having issues with your local chapter, reach out to other comrades in other chapters like DSA accountability or you know, if you, if you're having trouble with, if you have issues with the way that your chapter is structured, maybe talk to a DSA, Libertarian Socialist Caucus. Yes. Or hit us up on Twitter. I mean, part of a huge part of what we're doing. And that, that I have sort of like treat it as my little baby for, for the, as, as we move from an Osi to a chapter are these bylaws that really tried to bake in the concept of horizontal horizontality and the equality of all members within their area of work and expertise. Do we
Speaker 3to move away from, uh, Dan Gauzy and talk about Iowa draft bylaws?
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, well talk a little bit about it. Just sort of give a basic overview. Um, I want to make this into a, a full episode once the bylaws are complete so that we have the, so that we can sit down and talk about the, the full theory and the ramifications or the expected ramifications of the way that we have structured them
Speaker 3and kind of have a, a whole package to put out because some people have contacted us saying, we're interested in, in reading what you're working on. We, you've thank you soles for teasing us about these bylaws. Can we please fucking see them? Um, and I think maybe having, having a package to put out that includes us talking about them as well as the bylaws and, and maybe, you know,
Speaker 4a guide for somebody like me who is not great at reading all these things. Examples. Sorry, interrupting. Yeah, no, go ahead. Um, specific made up situations or situations that we have faced or other groups have faced and how it would be handled in this us set of, you know, laws or whatever as opposed to another one. Um, and what the difference was maybe a side by side comparison. Ooh, that would be cool. Like either it's a Danny for Tante issue or something much smaller. You know what I mean? Like there's an action, how are we going to, what are we gonna are we gonna join blah, blah, Blah and show how the decisions are made. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 1Yeah, so there's, um, you know, as, as we move into a situation where are our bylaws I think are pretty stable right now. We're just waiting for more input from the rest of the comrades and our local here. Um, once, once we, once we have what we think is pretty much it, um, I'm going to start working on a reader for the bylaws, which the bylaws are when 18 pages right now, 16 pages or something like that. So that's already long with, uh, the readers obviously going to be longer. It's going to have, it's going to be written in more of a sort of story format to talk to, to like sort of like walk through the lifecycle of the party, um, or the organization, you know, the uh, dealing with different, Eh, Eh, you know, potential issues that come up and, and sort of using that kind of story to talk about how the bylaws impact the actual functioning. Like, like how you can use the bylaws to, um, build in a issue resolution, you know, as, as things come up because you don't need rules and regulations when things are okay. Right, right.
Speaker 3And I think that's one of the things that we've kind of been skating on so far that, and I know a lot of ocs and a lot of locals have skated on that, you know, you don't need a grievance procedure until there was a grievance. Right. You don't need, Hey, if you're the NPC, you don't need anything written down about how to send ship people until suddenly you decide you're going to sentia somebody, which the NPC decided they're going to sense to him. But I don't see anything that I've read about that being an actual thing that they can do, which is interesting. Yeah. Um, but yep. Hopefully, um, you know, in a podcast episode about it and explainer the bylaws, maybe something with puppets, um, diagrams, examples, stage play, musical, no porn parody. This ain't bylaws s this ain't sociocracy x, x, X. Yeah.
Speaker 1Um, yes. And you know, I think I've actually discussed this on the podcast before. Yeah, it was with John, um, Groucho Marxist.
Speaker 3Oh yeah. He was asking about how we were organized. So if you want a, a brief overview and you want to listen to a really good interview with an La calm ride, uh, look up that episode, which I cannot remember what number it was. I know it was less than 12, because this is episode 12.
Speaker 1Yes. It doesn't episodes already. Wow. Yeah. And maybe one good one if that, um, I'll, I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but, so the, for, for those who haven't listened to it and maybe don't want to listen to the whole episode, uh, lose your place in this episode and lose your place in this episode. Yeah. So the, the, you know, 30,000 foot view is that local concerns are kept as local as possible. Right. So if you have, if you have a group of people who are working on, you know, outreach to other organizations, then those people who are concerned about that would basically come together into a, um, a formalized affinity group. And they would then discuss about how to, um, how to handle the resources that they have for outreach. And you know who, who is going to talk to whom, you know, which, which organizations are the best to um, approach and how to do that. And then as you get into situations where you have, um, for example, uh, the jobs with justice coalition here is uh, is looking into a grassroots campaign for a 15 hour minimum wage throughout the county and that is going to require a lot of boots on the ground work, not just the, the sort of like research work that we have done so far. So that requires that I, as someone who was working as a part of a DSA northbay outreach to other local organizations, I would have to go to the chapter two, the chapter as a whole in this case to say these, this is what is being asked of us. These are the resources that are going to be made available to us, these other resources. We need these, this is the number of people, that kind of thing. And then as a chapter, because this affects the whole chapter, we then decide on what to do. But prior to this, most of what I was doing was just being involved with the local co jobs justice coalition to do research and to occasionally show up at city council meetings, stuff that doesn't require the whole chapter. And so because the whole chapter had basically given consent can yeah. Given consent to say go work with these people then then they left it to me to, to to best figure out how to do that. And if there was an issue, if people saw an issue with the way that I was doing it, they could recall me and put somebody else in, you know, so there's, there's this idea of recall, but people are essentially to the, to the extent that you can, people are left to do the work that needs to be done and the way that they feel they need to do it. And then as you have to, um, bring more people in, there are structures designed specifically to do that so that you don't get into this tyranny of structureless Nis situation.
Speaker 3Huh. All right. I think that's a, that's a pretty good, pretty good high level view of it. And if you want more details, check out the episode with Groucho Marx Cyst or a checkout, a future episode where we talk in more detail about it and maybe end up with a youtube session with some drawings and stuff if our examples but are, and I can tell you want to say something. I'm going to keep talking. So
Speaker 4I'm excited for it. I think it's, um, I like though we are the brave, um, expedition into something like this. Um, there's a reason we're doing it. It's not just because this is how we like to operate. It is also how we like to operate. Yes. But we are as a no black holes like a, I think type area said this the other night. Um, we're going to try to put it into reality and tweak it and fine tune it so that it can be then applied in other contexts. Yeah. Yeah. When we take over the world.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I will say that, um, this isn't, it's not like I'm inventing stuff from whole cloth and that other chapters aren't doing stuff like this. Right. Um, I, I think that we are one of the few, if not the only one that I'm really aware of that is being this intentional about it, that that is trying to essentially have this the sense that what we're doing is a perfect duration for something much grander. And, uh, you know, there's, there's a much more, a much stronger push that we have in, in our local for, you know, radical, horizontal, decentralized democracy. So there, there is, there is a sense in which we are pushing it maybe farther than other chapters are, but a lot of chapters are doing these kinds of things on an ad hoc basis and maybe haven't formalized it. And, and I think that the big thing that I am excited about is to share what our work with other chapters so that maybe they can look into how they can implement these ideas and tweak them, experiment with them and make them better.
Speaker 3So I know we're coming up on just over an hour now, but, um, would you indulge me as I talk about a concern I have about our local and maybe brainstorm some stuff about it. Let's do it. So we had our, uh, meeting, um, last week on Monday, fourth meeting, June, July, August. It was our always meeting. So I said, oh yeah, it was only our third meeting. Sorry. All. So we just feel like we've come so much further.
Speaker 1This is Trump time. There's, there's no such thing as a short span. Right.
Speaker 3We've, we had our third meeting and um, apart from really the organizing committee, a lot of it was new faces and not returning people. And I have a concern that, that we are maybe not engaging new members and not keeping them coming back. And I don't know if that is an issue with meetings or an issue with the fact that we haven't yet spun up our working circles so that there's nothing for people to get engaged with between meetings or the fact that we're not, we don't really have that many actions. A lot of the stuff that we're doing involves talking and planning. We're not getting out there and doing kind of the stuff that I like the garden that you and I talked about earn. Um, and I, in order to, I mean in order to become a chapter, we have to have at least 15 people to sign the bylaws. Um, but in order to grow power we have to have people keep coming back. And um, I don't know how to do that because all I know is what I'm doing right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. I, I totally feel that, you know, for me this, this entire process has been, has, has been an exercise in building a plane in mid flight. Like we're, there's a ton of stuff that needs to get done and in this county and in this country and in this world, and there's a ton of things that need doing and there's a ton of just really basic, boring as fuck organizational work before we can get to a point where we can have effective actions and we are in this county, the only real socialist organization and those of us who are socialists up here for a very long time. And even to a great extent now are very alienated from each other. And so we are, we are in this really awkward situation where the way that we are attempting to build ourselves as a chapter to build power is through, um, this is through like a mass organization. And so, so when an order to build the, the chapter, like I at a structural level, we need a lot of people in Nora to have a lot of people. We need to have a structure for people to engage with. So it's, it's a very difficult thing and I think that, I, I think that we are at a good place right now to get started on, on actions and working circles and, and to have things that people can do, um, to have little things that people can do to feel like they are a part of the organization. And Kern has talked about, um, turning the, uh, at at least half of the, the general assembly meeting into a social, and this is one of the things that, that we talked, uh, uh, yesterday as you know, the, the foundations of the emotional support working circle, which I think is going a big part of that. It's just going to be the social circle, you know, to, to provide emotional support and to um, uh, engage people in just basic relationship building within the organization.
Speaker 3I think you saying engage like engagement and activation and I've, I've taken a training on, on how to engage and activate members, but I, for whatever reason, I'm terrible at social crap and haven't have been too scared to do that kind of stuff. But it's, it's kind of reaching out to individuals and doing the half hour, um, kind of motivational interview it kind of one on one. And we do have a common right in the OCC who has taken a training on that. And as when we, nick, when I next see him, I'll see how that's going. But this is where it gets into the stuff that I really don't like doing, which is talking to people. Um, and I know that I'm bad at it. And thank you for shaking your head earn. Um, I know that I'm bad at doing it with the aim of engaging people in okay. In Dsa Northbay. Um, so I'm hoping, I mean part of this thing with brainstorming is hoping that there's a, a magical other solution. Something else else
Speaker 4that I can do that isn't that. And we are like, this has been our active aim and the last I think month or two is to engage people. So if we're not necessarily successful so far we are trying and seeing what works. And also it's tough because it's one night a month and a lot of people can't make it this night or that night for whatever reason. So I said after a year we can really gauge how we are. Um, I wonder if just an outright, so the second DSA event I went to was in the East Bay was the Valentine's Day. Like was that a bar? And it was everyone I know in DSA was there. I met basically everyone I know from Dsa met that night, SF, East Bay, the peninsula. It was so much damn fun and we just fucking talked about socialism and leftism for like hours. Um, and that maybe if we have nothing specific to do, um, for one of our meetings we just make it a social and if it wasn't for you at a bar, it could be like a picnic or something. Yeah. Because especially in this area where you have to drive to get anywhere. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, the other idea is I'm marching with DSA comrades and, and fucking decked out in red a really makes you feel like, oh, like I'm a part of something.
Speaker 1And so any actions that we can go to that's just a simple rally, you know, symbolic stuff. But have people feel like they're part of something in that way, that rallies and marches are so good at getting people activated. Sure. You know, having, having rituals and inclusion, yes. Really is what you're talking about.
Speaker 3Speaking of rituals of inclusion, I, I do have some tea shit ideas in the top, in the back of my head. So
Speaker 1Nice. Yeah. So, you know, um, you were asking what is it that you can do as someone who isn't really about that social life, like in an intentional way for the purpose of movement building? Yeah. Um, like your, the, the work that you need to be doing or that I think that that you need to be doing in order to support those of us who are, who, who can and are willing to do that kind of outreach. You're already doing it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, being one of the few members in this organization who can provide like a basic day to day sane organizational strategy.
Speaker 3And I, I have found one of the things that I enjoy more than I thought I would is finding and connecting people. So finding somebody in Petaluma who might be interested in socialism and then connecting them to somebody on the Osi who may be is better at convincing people to come to a meeting than I am. That kind of, that kind of thing where, where I can be the conduit and I don't necessarily have to be good at convincing people of stuff you mean?
Speaker 1Well, I mean that's, that's to get back to the structure of the organization. That is the entire goal of the working circles is, is that, you know, we each provide our hour labor and effort in an hour. The areas that we think that we can make a positive impact in and that we are affected by. And then those, you know, those, those, uh, affinity groups then support each other and, and communicate and make sure that everybody is collectively working towards positive change. But you don't have to have everybody always up in everybody else's business. You know, having that, that separation means that you can be a lot more effective, you know, as, as a, as a concentrated group of dedicated people. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3On, I know you have very, very good at meeting and talking with people and, and that kind of, I'm a shoes or I was going to put it in nicer terms, but yeah, you are, you are very good at, at doing that sort of stuff that that terrifies me. Earn and I are social butterflies, social butterflies, butterflies, Tattoo.
Speaker 1Um, yeah. So that's the, you know, I think that it's a challenge and I think it's really going to come down to how we can, with the limited amount of people that we have right now, organize and be involved in actions that allow newcomers and people who are unsure of themselves in relationship to the socialist movement to, to find a place where they feel that they can do something that is effective and that they, they think is, um, that they think is relevant for them to in. Once we start doing that, it's that classic bootstrap problem. Once we, once we start doing that and we start getting people in, then we can do more things that get more people in. Right. Um, yeah, I, I don't really know a whole lot about like the specific kinds of actions that we can take. I think a big part of what we need to do to bring people in is in this social outreach work. So I think that that is important. Otherwise I wouldn't have made that sort of like my top priority after the bylaws. So, and I'm, I'm sure that, that you and, and other comrades, especially, um, a cat who, uh, went to the North Bay organizing projects, um, uh, training, you know, you guys are probably much more prepared to, to think about that kind of stuff than I am
Speaker 3prepared to think about it, but maybe not. Well personally, personally don't have necessarily the skills to do it. So off the top of my head, this will be something where, uh, that calm, right. And I perhaps could lead a training for the OCC on it so that, you know, some skills that you can use to move it. It's a, it's an idea of circles. You have the center, which is the incredibly activated, it's like central people who come to everything. Um, and then you have outer circles of like decreasing levels of engagement and the aim is to move somebody from just in one circle. So maybe from disengaged kind of just getting the mailings and nothing else into somebody who comes to a meeting. Right. Or from somebody who comes to a meeting to somebody who's on a working circle or from somebody who's on a working circle to somebody who um, participates in actions, that kind of thing. So I'll put that on my to do list of arranged to train your on that cause I do have my notes from it.
Speaker 1Um, I think that that's probably a pretty good place to wrap up.
Speaker 3All right, friends, calm rights listeners, people who stumbled upon on soundcloud and somehow manage to sit through it. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I wish you joy and peace and may all of your May, all of your Nazi punches land true and follow through something like that. If you choose to punch a Nazi in self defense. I have been commune all sauce. I'm Erin and I'm Tobias. We love you. We love you. Go in peace and be in solidarity.
Speaker 2[inaudible]
Speaker 5if you want to stay her, know the, we've been this and, but just give me one more song. Thank you. Want to heal? Hey, hey, this conversation. Ooh. Excuse me. See Danielle. Yay. Cause we didn't book. Just say hold them back. I can't get it. Do you walk today? [inaudible].