Speaker 1 0:00

It's sourced here. I'm riding on the coat tails of someone far better than me. Malloy from the discourse collective has agreed to join us on stage and tell a school about the dictatorship of the teen in Vallejo, November the fourth. For more information and to get your free tickets go to bit.ly forward slash Malloy underscore in underscore for Leo@bit.ly forward slash m a l l o y underscore in underscore v a l l e j o somewhat special episode of the podcast. Today we're going to be talking about consent, enthusiastic consent, and so this is a content warning for anybody who may be affected by discussions of issues like sexual assault and rape. This episode may be triggering for you and I want you to make sure that you take care of yourself. If you don't feel like you can handle this discussion, nobody knows whether you listened to or not. Be well. Hello and welcome to another episode of left coast podcast. I am communists source and I am joined today by three amazing guests. Please go ahead and introduce yourselves. We'll start with logan.

Speaker 2 1:58

Hi, I'm Logan, I use they them pronouns and I organize in Chicago, Chicago, action medical and Chicago vsa.

Speaker 3 2:12

Uh, hi. I'm, I'm, I use they them pronouns. I am an organizer in Indianapolis. Actually I'm coacher of the Indianapolis Branch and I am an artist.

Speaker 4 2:24

Okay.

Speaker 1 2:25

And last but not least, Aaron.

Speaker 5 2:28

Hi, I'm Aaron. Um, I use they them or she her and I'm part of Chicago, actually unethical,

Speaker 1 2:39

but we also have a presence but not participating. Tiberius who will be, I suppose, doing producing duties or just waving his hand if I'm doing something incredibly wrong. Um, but we got a thumbs up so I must be doing something right today. What we're going to be talking about is consent, enthusiastic consent, uh, kind of issues of bodily autonomy, sex, fun things along those lines. First questions, would each of you describe yourselves as leftists or socialists? I know one of a couple of, you've already given that away and if you are a leftist, what was it that, that brought you to leftism? I'm Aaron. Would you like to start?

Speaker 6 3:24

I do consider myself a leftist, but the earliest thing I remember was being in high school and being in like government class or history or something and talking about like what capitalism is and what socialism is and what communism is, and having this assignment of like, like break privately on a piece of paper. Like which one sounds better and you know, it was like, well obviously, of course. So I mean I feel like leftist is kind of a big, broad term. But um, yes, I would consider myself.

Speaker 1 3:57

Logan, how about you?

Speaker 2 3:59

Oh yeah, I definitely would. I guess I started being involved with activism when I was a sophomore in high school and I didn't really get until just a few years ago. I lived in an area that was technically more liberal I suppose. Um, but definitely had a lot of leanings towards leftism. I guess I kind of just grew up in an environment where it was kind of normalized to talk about things that were more or less than in nature. And when I found groups of people that had similar views to mine, I guess I kind of just naturally was drawn to that and yeah.

Speaker 1 4:44

Great. And Brent?

Speaker 3 4:48

Yeah, I would definitely describe myself as a leftist. Um, it's funny, it, uh, I always thought that like being a liberal was his left as you could go. And then. So that was, that was a good time. It was so blissful and nice. But then I think it was my sophomore year, I took a philosophy class with this professor. Oh. And I went to a quaker college. I went to earlham college in Richmond, Indiana. And I took a single philosophy class with this Turkish ex, Pat. He's the author of decolonizing democracy. So it was just an incredible class. And then next thing I know it's like full communism now. And then about a year ago, almost to the day, actually my life sort of collapsed and I moved home and within two months I was deeply involved with the DSA. And now it's my entire life.

Speaker 1 5:43

That's wonderful. I know the feeling of having the DSAP your entire life. I have cats as well. So DSA isn't my entire life and a spouse, but it feels like it sometimes.

Speaker 3 5:57

Yeah. That's how

Speaker 2 5:58

rats are with me. Like it wraps or socialism and there's nothing else. Yeah.

Speaker 3 6:08

Aaron, do you have an animal plus socialism?

Speaker 6 6:12

Oh, do I? I'm, I really can't choose between cat and dogs. I love them both.

Speaker 1 6:21

That's fine. We're multitenancy organization. Today we're going to be talking about consent with an emphasis on enthusiastic or affirmative consent. But let's get started. I think with the, with going over the basic of basics of consent, since we don't want to assume everybody, everybody knows it or at least anybody. Anybody out a logan do you feel like you could start us out with a, with a kind of a quick description of consent?

Speaker 2 6:52

Like in the most face sense, I guess it would be Indian I guess. Are we asking how it seems to be working in a legal sense

Speaker 1 7:02

either or. I know that the legal definition of consent and how it actually plays out on a tinder date or whatever can be fairly different.

Speaker 2 7:11

Right. Um, so I guess I would say that while consent, generally I would prefer it to be defined as like, you know, people saying yes, it tends to fall back to you. Oh well they didn't say no or they didn't say no enough or they didn't do this or that. So clearly that meant yes. But that I don't think is what content should be. That plays out.

Speaker 1 7:36

Aaron, any anything you want to add your own your own thoughts on, on what the basic definition of consent is?

Speaker 6 7:46

Yeah. So I think, I mean basically it was like only doing something when both parties are wanting to do it or both or more than two, like when everybody involved is cool and okay with what's going on. And you know, usually it's like in a sexual context, like when I talk about it the most or hear about it the most, that also has to do with um, you know, it can be like anything. Um, there's lots of different ways that something can be consensual unconsensual and in, in Chicago action medical, for example, when I went through the training, there was a lot of focus on um, like consent to, to give first aid and it was, it was really, it was really different. Like I would sexual consent. It's something that I think about a lot and I feel like I, you know, talk about a lot and have knowledge about. And it was, it was really interesting how, um, when, when we were doing like practice scenarios to learn how to give different types of medical treatment, like there's all these ways that, you know, like, thought of consent being a part of it. Um, and so that feels really important. Um, you know, like something that's very expansive and everywhere and essential. And um, and I, I feel like there was a, a later part of the question too that I forgot. Um, oh yeah, yeah. Okay. So I just, the other thing I wanted to add was like, um, in addition to what Logan said, um, that's totally true. Like, um, to be, it has to be an actual yes. I'm not just like, you know, they didn't say no or um, oh I didn't ask and then stop me or like some bullshit like that. And also I just feel like it's important to mention that like that type of communication is different for different people. I think it's really important not to assume I'm like people's ability with consent and like what consent looks like. Like it's, you know, it's, there, there's a lot of parts of somebody's identity and how they do things that go into like, um, what they need in terms of incense communication.

Speaker 1 10:07

Great. And Brynn, anything you'd like to add about what? I guess we're calling the kind of standard definition of consent and then if you would like to go onto affirmative or enthusiastic consent and kind of how you, how you see them differing?

Speaker 3 10:24

Yeah. So I guess the way like my visual image of consent as it stands now, like according to title nine and most colleges and all these other systems that have more or less failed is gunshow comic with the dog and the flaming room. And the coffee mug saying this is fine, like that's kind of how consent works now in my opinion. And something that is notable about, in my opinion, one of the major failures of this level of consent, like that sound of consent is um, non male people. It's hard to say no. Like we were very much conditioned to like, like, like it's almost an upfront if a non male person denies you anything. And so, um, that's why enthusiastic consent is so important because like if you're hooking up with someone and they're just going for gold and like it's just, if they don't ask because sometimes the opportunity to say no, does it come up? And then you feel gross and weird and you don't know why because you didn't say no, but they didn't. You didn't say yes either. And so that's where affirmative enthusiastic consent comes in. Just the idea of like, I don't know, I guess I can speak. It's okay if I like, use an example of the first time I encountered enthusiastic consent. All right. So I was hooking up with this gorgeous French boy and my freshman year of college. And we were making out and he looks up at me and he's like sliding to hand down my and it's spicy as hell and he goes, is this okay? And I'm like, and it was just hot, it was just super hot and I was into it and uh, and I was, it was like a very shrill. And uh, that's, that's how, that's, that was my introduction to these yards to consent. It's a good time.

Speaker 1 12:11

Logan, anything you'd like to add to description? Which I really loved that description.

Speaker 2 12:20

I guess actually when I was first introduced to the concept of like enthusiastic or informative consent, I was introduced to it as radical consent, which I tend to personally like because I think it implies like autonomy that I don't think a lot of other words necessarily, but I guess like I was first introduced to the concept you by a therapist and then I was just like, oh yeah, I mean that's great. And all. But I don't know if anyone else would be interested in that. And, uh, I guess the first time I encountered it in like a real life scenario was, uh, actually one of my current partners because I think one of the biggest concerns people have is that it's going, like ruin the mood to be asked if this is okay or do you want this? But I had the exact opposite in the same sense that Brendan did it actually enhanced it and I felt much more empowered to be able to say, no, actually I don't want that, or yeah, no, I really do enjoy that. Can we please keep going than I thought it was just a very, very empowering experience and it's something that I'm not willing to go backwards on now.

Speaker 1 13:29

Erin, how about you?

Speaker 5 13:31

Yeah, so I, I am also inspired by brand to share my first introduction to medical consent, which, you know, that mentioned it and describe it. I love that way of saying it too. So my first introduction to this was, you know, I had, before I had, you know, I knew what consent was. I had the idea of like, if somebody says no, you know, that's not consent. If somebody's too drunk, that's not consent. If somebody sleeping like, not consent while Blah, like bliss goes on. My first time being just like, like directly asked, um, I was, I was at a party and I was Kinda like me in the host. We just kind of just like, you know, we'd be like looking into each other's eyes and um, you know, and then that went on for awhile and eventually she was like, do you want to come up to my bedroom? And I was like, yes, yes I do, that would be wonderful. And we got up there, we're sitting on her bed and she was like, um, can I kiss you? And that was the first time I had ever been asked. I had, I had had people do things that like, I thought they were okay and worked like, um, you know, like kissing, kissing my cheek first and then kind of gradually. So like, you know, if I had been like, oh, I don't want to kiss you, I could move away, you know? Um, or like doing like the lean into a 90 percent and let the other person come 10 percent and stuff like I had been exposed to that sort of thing, but that was the first time anyone had directly asked me. Things went on and we were, yeah, we were asking about everything and you know, like, can I take off your shirt? Yes. Can I take off your shirt? Yes. And it was just wonderful and it was very, it was, it was a very transformative experience for me. I didn't end up dating this person for very long, but yeah, that, that was, that was like a very special thing that I will always remember. And, and uh, yeah, like this person likes at this highest standard for me in terms of what I expect from other people. Um, so, uh, yeah, and, and I'm going off the theme about like consent being sexy. I totally think it is. It's just like really great dirty talk, you know, you say like you say exactly what you want to do and it adds something and the person's into it, it makes it even greater. And um, and if they're not and they have a chance to like upfront, so, you know, I don't want to do that. That's not the point. The point is that it's fucking mandatory and needed, but also as a fun side benefit. It is very sexy.

Speaker 1 16:18

I was going to ask about how this kind of relates to leftism or socialism, but based off what you said, Aaron, about how you say, how, how sexy it can be. It can be a version of like dirty talk. Let's, I guess move on to the three of you assume the listener or myself that has not been using radical consent. How would you go about, or how do you suggest somebody goes about introducing the concept of radical consent into an existing relationship with somebody, perhaps an existing sexual relationship or a relationship that might be about to become sexual relationship? Aaron, if you, if you want to start,

Speaker 5 17:04

I guess I have a couple ideas I can kind of just like brainstorming out loud. One thing to do would be like to do it, to do it yourself, to like kind of model, um, you know, what it would look like and what it would sound like and like kind of just be like, oh, hey, I, I really, I really liked when you do this, what do you like or ask for something directly? And maybe if they had reservations about it, the partner could see like, oh yeah, this is, this is really cool. Because I think a lot of the time I know that this was like this for me. I, um, before I was introduced to radical consent, I, I was, I was pretty, I was pretty passive. Like I was worried about, you know, I was fully aware that I could fully know, like whether someone was consenting, like, you know, there's signs that you can look for and I'm aware of that and I can make guesses. But like I was really worried like not to, not to cross any boundaries and, and you know, I had learned like what people told me about, oh, it's like weird and that kills the mood if you ask. So I was, I was pretty passive and I wasn't exactly like getting anything like that fulfill, like that was definitely missing. But I just, I didn't know that and I had stuff that was really bad. I had stuff that worked okay. And so I was Kinda just like, that's, that's just how it is. I think it's, it's something that it's so normalized like non-consent and bad consent are so normalized that I feel like a lot of people don't really know. It's like something is bad. Like you know, they might internalize it or just kinda check out. And I think definitely like having a conversation upfront and saying like, you know, I've heard about this thing I'd like to try out with you and kind of like taking the lead and like, you know, like show of showing an example of like, I'd like for you to ask me this way and talking about kind of like, you know, how do you asking like, like if you know, when we're having sex, do you feel comfortable saying that you don't like something or you know, what if you don't, like what would you need? Yeah, I've been talking about. That's good.

Speaker 3 19:18

Anything you'd like to add? I don't know. The first thing. Well first of all the term radical, I'd never heard of that and I love it. So this is an educational experience for me especially. I'm enjoying this, but I guess the first thing is that if you're not at a comfort level with your partner to be having these conversations than maybe having a sexual relationship with them. Something that could wait until you're ready to have those conversations. And so I know Aaron mentioned leading by example, which I think is really the best thing. Like if you're hooking up just like every, every step like ask, is this okay? What are you into? But then before that point, I think it's important to just have a conversation. Like it can be fun. So what are you into like do you have it? What do you think is spicy? Just kind of fun, stuff like that. And then I know especially like non heterosexual couples, like there's a little bit of planning that has to go into your hookups sometimes. Like, um, do with your imagination what you, what you will with that statement, but I'm like, I don't know, just talking about beforehand figuring out what everyone is into and setting down boundaries. That's a really important one that gets important to like say like what's Okay and then very clearly defining what is not like something that is very off limits to me. Just setting that out. So like saying no while you're saying yes, other things

Speaker 1 20:48

is helpful as well. Logan, how about you?

Speaker 2 20:51

Well, I actually have been in a situation where it had introduced it into an already existing relationship. I think it was made a little bit easier because I'm very impressed with all my partners that I have some very hard limits and that I have like a trauma history so I try and get prompt with that. So it was a little bit easier since I was up front about that in the first place to just be like, hey. So I found out about this thing and it was really helpful when one of my other partners did this and it made it a lot easier for me to stay present during a sexual encounter or do you think we could try this? Um, I also think that I'm modeling it is super important. I also try and model it in like platonic relationships in terms of like platonic touch, like hugs, holding hands, et cetera. So I try to always ask for consent before doing any sort of thing that could be considered a more intimate either physically or emotionally. And I think that helps too because if people have been in like a situation with piano protonic level, they're probably going to be a little bit introduced to it to begin with. And Yeah, I think that Britain did bring up a good point in having a discussion about things ahead of time as well. I always do try to have discussions about like what my limits are even in terms of like a vanilla sexual encounter because I do have hard limits just that other people might not think of. Um, and I think that helps start the conversation in terms of radical consent as well.

Speaker 1 22:11

I really loved the term radical consent. That's what I'm going to call it Aaron.

Speaker 5 22:18

Yeah. So traditional that I had wanted to say I just me, I um, I kind of for awhile, for a long time kind of gravitated towards like being passive and waiting for other people to ask and not doing it myself and waiting for other people to initiate. And that felt pretty bad to me and like I've from from my past experiences with, with trauma and like not getting people doing stuff without my consent. It's, it's very hard for me sometimes to um, to either like say you know, I do want this or I don't want this. And something that helps me and I think might help other people like in a similar situation is just like, like practicing a lot. Like I'm talking outside of a sexual situation beforehand with your partner. And also just like, you know, I, I ride my bike a lot. Sometimes they practice stuff on my bike. Sometimes I practice saying like, oh, it would really be hot if you did this or like I, you know, I'm like, stop it, I need to and you break or whatever. So that was another thing I wanted to add

Speaker 1 23:32

as somebody who's. I was in the, uh, the bdsm scene and one of the things that I was introduced to through that is basically this big long of things. And you say whether you like, yes, I want to do that, or no, I don't want to do that. Or soft yes. Or like an absolutely never. And going through that list it is, it's probably become even more exhaustive since the last time I did it. Um, there's some stuff on there you have to look up and you're like, there is a lot more stuff going on than, than even the Internet taught taught me that was going on. And that was, that was also really freeing because if, for example, you have a some patriarchal, puritanical notions of what a good girl should be into versus what a bad girl or whatever you can at the very least while you're becoming comfortable with what you like, be like, well sure, I like this, but look, there are people over there who like that. So maybe on this giant spectrum, I'm fine. That is, in my opinion, not a very healthy attitude to keep on for a very long time. But if you're still moving towards being comfortable with what you like. That personally for me helped me grow more, more comfortable with acknowledging what I was and what I wasn't into. Sorry Brent,

Speaker 3 25:01

sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. This actually reminded me of another sort of sexy related story about having conversations beforehand. I've found that with my non male partners, it's way easier conversation to have because like all of us have had something horrible happened to us in the past. Like it's just a given. But my current partner, he, he, he's male. And on our anniversary he was going to surprise me. We were going to go somewhere and I had a week to mull over where we possibly could be going and I eventually became convinced that we were going to like a sex dungeon and um, so before any of this had happened, he'd only given me a clue as to where we're going and I was so angry with him. I was just like, you need to talk to me. Like I had the whole talk, like I was into it, but like at the same time, like it's something we need to talk about, so we're in the car and I'd like Kinda like, I'm Kinda mad, but like kind of excited. And then he ended up just taking me to a spa. We each got a massage and I was extremely wrong. But uh, yeah. So just stuff like that comes up if you're paranoid. So yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 26:11

That's a really good story. I communicate in all sorts of things and that's, that's a good segue into how this concept of radical consents ties into stuff like socialist feminism, this concept that we all have bodily autonomy and autonomy in terms of our actions as well. And for somebody else to do something to us without our saying, that's fine, please do that. Or just assume that we will be okay with something is a level of um, I love Louis. You mean privilege and assuming the power to make decisions for other people. And that to me does not Mesh with socialism, does not Mesh, especially with libertarian socialism and anarchy and we should be living our politics. I hadn't thought about consent for things like emotional labor, but now I realize that also is something you should check in. Like, Hey, I have a thing that I would like to talk to you about. It's kind of heavy. It'll take like 30 minutes. Do you have time? Are you available? Does this raise any, anything that any of you would, would like to talk about logan

Speaker 2 27:37

saying in feminism I also am a libertarian socialist slash communist, etc. But the thing that I've encountered most, um, even in leftist circles, I think there is still a consistent enough problem, at least here in chicago, I'm not sure about other areas of men sometimes monopolizing and assuming consent for emotional labor and physical, et cetera. And I do think that's something, at least in chicago that is Being worked on, um, to talk to the male members of various organizations to see about what we can do about that. But I do think that if we can at least introduce the concept of even just in terms of emotional labor, et cetera, um, as being very important, especially if you're in a position of power as a male socialist, that tIes directly into the concept of radical consent. And that in itself I think would be in the navy and I do think it's a work in progress, but it's consistent enough that she's still. But I think it merits attention.

Speaker 1 28:41

Absolutely. Aaron.

Speaker 5 28:43

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I would resonate a lot with what logan was saying with, with emotional labor. It's, um, I, I heard somebody put this in a really great way about like, you know, if you, if you post something on facebook that you, a trigger warning or a content note, you know, it should kind of be the same thing in person, right? Like if you want to talk about something that maybe would be triggering or difficult or require a lot of emotional labor from another person, check in about that first because I like, I want to talk about this. Is that cool with you with like organizing and working together with other people, um, and you know, doing, doing that kind of labor. There's a lot of like gender dynamics and cis male privilege going on. And I think also like there's, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of dynamics. Like for me it's an amex and it's also, um, I have some difficulties, you know, people

Speaker 6 29:42

who um, aren't really that great at asking me for consent promotion, emotional labor, um, and like making space for me, they like to call it like that. I'm just an introvert or something. That's not true at all. It's like I have some social anxiety, I have like some, some issues with it, like I talk kind of slow sometimes because of memory and because of word finding and stuff and there's this assumption of like, oh well you can talk if you have something to say and then just say it. And I think it's very important in any really appreciate like facilitators who make sure that there's space for people and people who kind of. Yeah, just check in because you know, if something, if something bad is happening already, whether it's something sexual that I don't want or um, you know, somebody like going on and on and on about a topic that I did not consent to hear them vent about. It's very difficult for me to stop and interrupt something that's already taken place. I think that that is very important. Like not making an assumption and just doing something. But yeah, lIke checking in about it first.

Speaker 3 30:49

I think aaron and logan both did a really great job of summarizing things thus far. And so what I would like to specifically address is the idea that men on the left are somehow less predatory than other men. Like it seems like there's this very widespread notion on the left that like, oh well, because we're like air quotes woke that we're not as predatory and we're not as guilty and we're not as complicit as like liberal men are right wing men. And that is just not true. That is fundamentally untrue. When I was at earlham, my rapist was a leftist. He was a huge activist. Even within the dsa I have seen a man without going into too much detail, I have seen him abuse his power to just act predatory towards women and it's just not acceptable. And so sort of where I would go with this is I so frequently see guys asking, well, what can we do to help? What can we do to help? my first response to that would honestly just shut up. Like, if you're a dude, just just be quiet for awhile. I'm like, uh, the thing is a guy talking like, yes, the answer's almost always yes. And so just stop, just stop. I don't want to hear your opinion on what devops is doing. I don't want to hear your opinion on title nine. I don't want to hear about how great you are about asking for Consent because you're probably exaggerating or lying. And I'm in my branch is really cool. Like I was telling them yesterday, it's like I have to meet a guy like at least three times before I even like willing to tolerate having him in the same space as me, lIke listeners to the, to the grave. Then the other thing I've heard this said so many times and men just cannot get it through their heads. Like call out your bros, like talk to them. Like if you see them just being gross, say something. If you hear them using misogynist language, say something like, just speaking up in your own community is. I really think one of the most important things and when you shouldn't speak up, is when literally anyone who does experience this kind of behavior has the opportunity to speak. I think that's it. I think I'm done. I'm kind of out of breath, so

Speaker 1 33:04

thinking on on that, dudes on the left, on the left have to deal a lot with it being assumed that we're going to be the ones to bring this stuff up and if you are a cis guy and you're in the left and you don't already have this concept of radical consent or even if you think you do my advice personally be to learn all you can about it and then teach your bros. Don't make us the holders of something that should be your responsibility. Sometimes people do shit because they just don't know, but there is so much information out there and I've. I feel like making radical consent, enthusiastic consent, affirmative consent. I feel like making that the standard for every single interaction, especially in dsa in a chapter might be tricky at first, but I feel like that could be very empowering and good experiment. So if anybody out there has a chapter and wants to start trying to do that and report back, please, please do. I have a question that is was not in the list of questions, so I'm going to put it in the chat now. Obviously we should start this from, from the beginning of possible by teaching it to children teaching this concept of radical consent children. And how, how in your opinion would be. Would we go about doing that? Brynn?

Speaker 3 34:42

Thank you. I'm so excited about this. Alright, so hands down the best way to teach a kid consent. Get a cat. Now if the kid has an allergy, I don't know. Get rid of the kid. Just kidding. Don't do that. No, but seriously, cats are the meanest animals alive. And that's why they're perfect for this. Like if the cat is not wanting to be touched, the cat is going to tell you like do not touch me. And like it, it doesn't take a lot. Like you just look at the cat and the cat is like no. And so if the cat wants you to pet it with your eyes, get the cat going to tell you. So that's the first step. So like teaching your kid, don't pet the cat right now. The cat does not want to deal with your bullshit, but then the next level is like, I don't know, just really simple stuff. Like some kids are huggers and some kids are not, like, some kids are just not into the hugging and so like making sure your kid knows, like you don't have to have a grandpa and like if your classmate doesn't want to share their crayons right now, then just leave him alone. Go get your own crayons. I don't know, this is probably why I shouldn't have kids, but uh, yeah, just get a cat.

Speaker 6 35:52

Okay. Um, I mean I think all that's great. I don't think that's mean to kids that's like, you know, teaching them an important skill. I think teaching them like really early is really important and I think there's, there seems to be like with some parents attendancy to forgive and just be like, oh, they're a kid, you know, and like be really easy. I think that kids understand consent a lot better than adults would assume. Like in my experiences it's really common. Just, you know, you tell a kid like, oh hey, you should ask before you hugged this person. And they're like, oh, okay, thank you for telling me. And maybe they take some practice and they, they mess up a couple times but you know, it's not like this big giant thing that's too mature for them to understand like kids can get it. Yeah, I mean I think, I think it just like, like really early, like even before sex is like anywhere near something that they're, you know, I'm going to do. But just like making it something that's a part of everything both in terms of like you don't do something that somebody doesn't want. Like you don't touch someone when they don't want you to. And also like, yeah, like you don't, you don't have to hug someone if you don't want to. Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of that type of politeness stuff about like, you know, making kids do things that, that is really harmful. But like parents I'm sure like him the best intentions and don't think about. But yeah, like it's, it's really, it's really easy. Like because rape culture is so pervasive handling non-consent, it was so normalized. it's like it's really easy to, to teach consent, doesn't matter. And then, you know, something they kind of have to like unlearn when they're older.

Speaker 2 37:52

Um, honestly I think that everyone covered that really well. I definitely agree that I think it's really important to kind of, even in the home, I'm not super great with kids, don't get me wrong, but um, I think that like a consistent problem, at least in the kids I was around growing up and my family was forced affection and even if it's not like a quote unquote abusive household, like having affection forced upon you that you can't say no to you, it sets you up to not be able to have as much of an easy time saying no going forward. So I think modeling radical consent in terms of your interactions with your own children, showing them that they should ask as well. I think them that you asked is a really good way to model it because if you're doing it for them, I think often kids translate more easily than maybe an adult would, so they'll be like, oh my parents asked before they hugged me, therefore I should probably ask this person before that has them. So I think that it really, really needs to start in the family, but just teaching in general is a really good idea.

Speaker 1 38:57

And this is a followup question from the peanut gallery. Should we be. Can we be more explicit about separating the concept of consent from it just being sexual consent so that we can allow it to be applied more broadly and I'm logan would you do as the owner of starting?

Speaker 2 39:18

Sure. I think that's incredibly, incredibly important. I think that is consent is a culture in general. It is Automatically going to apply the apply to sexual encounters. Like aaron was saying, in terms of our, our training as street medIcs with chicago action medical, one of the things we really, really focus on is asking consent before doing anything and that is obviously not a sexual situation. I think it's incredibly important, as I was saying with the concept of consent for children, um, to start early and start in platonic situations because if you're used to it in a platonic situation, it's going to be so much easier to think that's normal and to expect and ask for it in a sexual decision.

Speaker 1 40:01

And erin, how about you?

Speaker 6 40:04

So yes, definitely consent is important with sex and with everything else. Another, another thing that this of like brings up for me is like if someone has had sexual trauma, like any kind of non Consent can be. Yeah,

Speaker 5 40:21

extremely triggering. Like you know, if you, if you go to the doctor and they just start like touching your chest and putting their like um, uh, what do you call it? A what are those things that listen to your heart. but anyway, like they just put it on you without asking. They liked, you know, just like do stuff without asking. That can be totally triggering people. Like an example that, that was a big deal for me. But you know, like maybe from the outside seems

Speaker 6 40:47

kind of, I dunno like an overreaction for me but

Speaker 5 40:51

wasn't like I just, I just couldn't stand anybody touching my bike without asking, like people would do it all the time because I'm like this fem looking person who um, you know,

Speaker 6 41:02

it would be like

Speaker 5 41:04

bike upstairs or whatever and people just grab it out of my hands and that made me so angry or anything like that, you know, if someone has had sexual trauma, it kind of reinforces that, at least for me. Like it reinforced this narrative that I was telling myself like you don't like, you know, you're not yours and people are just going to keep doing whatever they want like forever, like until your life. Um,

Speaker 6 41:34

so, so, so yeah, definitely. And um, and, and that makes it like, you know, like having that going on like all the time, like really makes it difficult for you to be present and do what you're doing. Yeah. So definitely consent needs to be everywhere.

Speaker 3 41:55

I saw you had a reaction to the bicycle. I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one who had this borderline obsessive relationship with my bike because I like, I'm kind of downtown indianapolis and I bike everywhere too and if I just see someone like a little too close to my bike, like I just get kind of mad. Like I feel this visceral rage. But I digress. Thank you erin for sharing that because I really thought I was the only one as far as the issue of consent goes. I think it's also important to remember to include are asexual comrades in conversations like this and just like keeping in mind the consent extends to so many other things like bikes or your body bodily autonomy and then sort of going back to what we were saying earlier about emotional labor or discussion topics. One example like this person I used to be friends with would consistently add me to this facebook page called like or something like that. Like it was pretty harmless but like it was just like really triggering content and I was not ready to like see that. And so I kept like removing myself from the group until finally I had to be like, do not add me back to this, like you've added me like five times and yeah. Yeah. And uh, but yeah, just like talking about things like emotional labor, just consent for everything. Like even though I think all of our mutual end goal is for everything to be communal and shared, there also has to be this element of respect, like personal property, property, just like a, I don't know because I don't consider my skin to be my property, but it's like it's part of me and my bike is and the rats. But yeah, I think that's it for me and logan.

Speaker 2 43:39

Okay. So, um, an example is brought up in terms of can I pet your dog? So I have a service dog. I don't use him as much as I used to because my medical stuff is a little bit more controlled now. However, when I was using him on a regular basis, this was such a problem. People don't understand that apparently they don't understand, but you shouldn't distract a service dog when they're working. People would just reach down and touch him and I had people assume that I was blind, which was a little bit confusing because my service dog is very small and very clearly not a leader dog, but it was just such a confusing issue and people would just take pictures of us when I was working and I mean for me the picture taking thing is a trauma thing. Very large trauma trigger in the sense of like, I don't you to take sure. I'm sorry, but in addition to that, like distracting my service dog is a very major issue. I'm like interfering with a service dog is like a. It's illegal actually. I'm not that. I think laws are great but like please don't distract my dog when he's like protecting my life. I don't really want to end up in the hospital. So it's like a major issue. Like it got to the point that I actually had to buy a sweatshirt that said yes, this is a service dog. Yes, this dog is allowed in here. No, you cannot pet it. Like I got to the point that I was just getting questioned so often I had like a billboard, a sweatshirt because I was building them. It's so constantly and people just did not seem to understand it. Any concept and like if they assume that you're disabled, they want to talk to you about it. Like I'm sorry you're a stranger. I don't want to talk to you about my medical problems. Thanks. It's just such an issue. Like, I don't know, people need to just stop assuming if it's a dog you can cut it. Especially if they're wearing them like they're working. Don't distract them. Thank you.

Speaker 1 45:37

I was going to say, I can't believe we have to say that, but unfortunately I can't believe we have to say that a service dog is not the same as a pet dog. And even even with the pet dog, you need permission to pet the dog. They might be a nervous dog, they might, they might have just been washed and your hand might come away smelling like lavender oil, tea tree or something. So, um, you had something.

Speaker 3 46:02

Sorry about that. I just wanted to say I want my first charges petting a police dog, like I want to go to jail for assaulting an officer and that's all

Speaker 1 46:13

I. I'd like to go around and is there anything in particular that you would like to kind of boost, promotes, talk about or any, anything else that you would like to talk about on this topic? And I will put this in the chat as well, so brand. Would you. Would you like to start?

Speaker 3 46:33

I guess I'm. Oh no. Your lights went off again. I guess for me, please follow my new twitter account. It's dsa delegate. It used to be nubs foreman, but there was an incident with John Green and that account got suspended. For the record, John Green isn't extremely reckless driver and a menace to society, but don't let him hear me saying that as far as promoting affirmative radical consent, not affirmative radical consent. Just keep reading and keep talking with people. Listened to your non male comrades. Thank you for having me on this. I've been so excited about this for a full week. I've told everyone I know and so this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for giving me a platform, which no one else ever does.

Speaker 1 47:19

Aaron, how about you?

Speaker 3 47:21

Yeah, I was thinking about was like, if you are a white male, I encourage to

Speaker 5 47:30

take a very listening role and just like, not like forest your assumptions, like I've had lots of experiences and I feel like I should have brought this up later, but I mean not, not later, sorry earlier. The other one. I should have brought this up earlier. There is a lot of harm that assumptions about white women. Um, and there's, there's a history of white people seeing people of color, black men in particular as sexually dangerous, where that is just totally not what's happening. And as a personal example, I used to live in a neighborhood that was predominantly black and I'm like, I lived there and I worked there. It was like a room and board compensation, like type of thing. And people would assume like I would when I was talking to people, um, there was, there was the board of directors who were all these white men and they'd come and they'd be like, oh, do you feel safe here and there? And then like talk as if there had been a concern brought up about safety when nobody, nobody had said that there was just this assumption about like, oh we need to walk. We use these young ladies like out to the, you know, like we need to like walk them places like at night because otherwise it's not safe and it's like this is perpetuating first. Like it's perpetuating this really harmful stereotype and it's also not respecting like my autonomy and consent. Like you're supposedly advocating for me and people who look like me but you're not like you're not listening, you're doing things that I'm actively saying like, do not do that. So that like check those assumptions and also like research and listen to people of color about the ways that they experienced sexual violence. And you know, what, what needs to be done about that? Because like that's white people doing that bullshit, like that's our responsibility to fix that. So that's one thing I wanted to add. I don't have any particular thing that I want to like promote, like in terms of like me personally, but just to say like thank you for listening to this podcast about consent and this is, this is either beginning or just like one step in your process. Don't stop here.

Speaker 1 50:03

Thank you erin. This podcast is. I'm looking at the, at the bottom of this screen and it's full white faces and then my three white faces, one white passing phase and then my wife incredibly white face and that's on me for not reaching out to more people of color to be on the podcast. Thank you, erin for, for bringing that up. Um, logan, anything else you'd like to comment on or anything that you'd like to promote?

Speaker 2 50:36

I guess I would just echo thank you so much for listening to this. I have had similar experiences to what ben said in that I was assaulted by leftist and I thought that I was done with activism. I thought I was done with everything and I ended up coming to the dsa, finding that spark again, like meeting people that were as passionate about consent and as passionate about inclusivity and getting people to learn and I know it's still a struggle, but it's something that I'm working on, something that I'm getting a lot more vocal and I think that I would accurately or and again into like just saying, listen, like we're talking about these things. There's so many resources, but also don't expect us to give you personally resources. This is where you will evolve. I don't know that that's actually a word, but you can google it. There's lots of resources and I would just recommend like don't expect our emotional labor. You can use google as well. Um, and in terms of promoting anything, I don't know that I have anything like personally want to promote, but we are working on a national dsa medic training which will be at the end of october. We are focusing on trying to open this up and get participants from areas that have been hardest hit by like police and protest violence as well as people who are lgbt people of color and especially people that have prior either combat or medical training, but anyone is welcome to apply and we're hoping to have this be like a recurring thing versus just a one time. Thanks.

Speaker 1 52:15

Thanks. Logan up. Could you do me a favor and email me maybe a link to where somebody could apply for or get information on that medic training and then we'll put that in the show notes along with some some links to some basic resources and also the obligatory link terrain. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I hope that this is a topic that we'll be able to talk more about in the future and not because we have to do it because something terrible has happened, but because there's more good shit that we can talk about about it. So again, thank you for coming on.

Speaker 3 52:53

I would also love to be involved with that medical thing. I used to be a lifeguard in that sentence. Really fucking cool.

Speaker 2 52:58

Well, uh, I will, I guess the group chat thing we had and alex personally.

Speaker 1 53:05

Wonderful. Thank you for. Thank you.

Speaker 7 53:11

Okay,

Speaker 1 53:13

there we go. Okay. Thank you for listening. As you could probably tell I ran that one on my own type areas helped, uh, helped me set up remotely. But if there are any amazing things that I did, I did them all on my own so you can just dme or praise to get in contact with us. You can email us@leftcoastpodcastatgmail.com. You can hit us up on twitter at left pod. You can talk to me on twitter, you can talk to check it and on twitter you can talk to earn on twitter. And we do have a facebook page as well, um, that I've not really looked at. Somebody looks at it. All right. Thank you very much for listening. I'm sorry, type areas. You're going to have to do so much editing on this one.

Speaker 8 54:26

The.