Left Coast Media

North Bae 009 - Ciao Paulo!

January 24, 2018 Left Coast Media
Left Coast Media
North Bae 009 - Ciao Paulo!
Show Notes Transcript
North Bae: The Internationale Edition featuring hosts Tiberius and Sauce interviewing Lorena (twitter.com/godeepORgohome) about Brazilian politics and international solidarity between the imperial core and the global south.

Support the show

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to North Bay, a podcast from the left coast media collective to connect with the show. Follow us on Twitter at left pod or the hosts at checker informant commune or sauce and our our our, our n. You can email us@leftcoastpodcastatgmaildotcomandourpatrionisatpatrion.com slash left coast media. We love you. Yes,

Speaker 2:

I think um, I liked the so much that I cannot not have a moment.

Speaker 3:

All right. Welcome comrades to another episode of the North Bay. I am as always your cohost type areas. Krokus.

Speaker 1:

I am communal sauce and we are joined today by a guest who I will allow to introduce themselves.

Speaker 2:

Hello, I'm Latina or Lorena if you want to pronounce it in English. Um, I'm a communist and I live in Brazil.

Speaker 3:

You hear a lot about Brazil but mostly about in economics terms as like the perpetually up and coming country.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes. That that is the country we are talking about.

Speaker 3:

The topic on hand today is you know, internationalism and socialism in countries that aren't predominantly like white and western. So go ahead, give it a little bit of a introduction on, you know, what's going on in your neck of the woods, the kinds of things that, that you have been seeing and getting up to locally.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Um, so, uh, here in Brazil we are not majorly white first of all, but yet we like to portray the Brazilian as a white person. That is one of the main things about, you know, this identity of the Brazilian people. I think that is important to point out or data shows that more than a little more than a half of our population is actually non nonwhite. And yet the supermodel that is recognized globally is she's Ellie benching that is a white blonde as like the symbol of the Brazilian beauty. So you see that the Brazil has, has come from a very colonized mindset from the Portuguese and all and it's a very Christian Cathartic place as well as Latin American general. Lately we have been seeing more mobilization on the streets since 2013 there's been a mobilization because of their race of the price of the bus in the some policy and the police were were very brutal so everyone like mobilized around it and there was like huge protests that has never been like that before. So that's been a few years back. And then four years ago there was the last presidential election that a lot of people weren't very split up between the candidate of the Worker's Party. That was joy who says, and a Kenyan age of a more right wing party, but actually they are both kind of right wing in my view or in the view of revolutionaries because the Workers Party has proven to be more of like the Barack Obama side of the democratic by then the Bernie Sanders sites, if you know what I mean. More neoliberal. Yes, exactly. I love live nearly bro. Like when we had 12 years of a president of the Worker's Party and majorly their reforms or very nearly borough and there was a law passed against terrorism because of the Olympics. The, that happen here, but basically this law allows the police to arrest protestors and that was in the, the Workers' Party, you know, mandate. So you see how dare, not really workers' Party, it's just kind of the day, the name. But the last, the last election Duma, who says that was our president was reelected, but there was a very huge queue, um, to impeach her. I think there was like minorly a message here and there in the international news report about it, but it was very little compared to how important that actually is, how much that means. Like it's the biggest country in Latin America. And there was a cue to impeach or first, you know, woman president and still in the Workers' Party. Like it's kind of left I suppose. But uh, so the impeachment happened and now we have the, the President Michel Temer and he is like officially, you know, right wing neoliberal, no hiding that. And now when he's president, he's reforming a lot of stuff that was built in the last, you know, 30 years of rights of workers. And he's bringing it all down with like one bill and one signature like in, so that the population and the, the um, how do you call it? It's not the syndicates in English unions. This is thank you unions. The unions are all like very pissed off. So last year in 2017, we had two major strikes like nationally, but the second one was a little less, less big than then the first one because we have a lot of, of unions that is connected with the people that the Workers Party and their workers' Party are thinking about, you know, the new election. So they don't want to make a fuss and they want to be elected again. And so the unions got a little less mobilized because of that, because most of the unions are not, you know, in revolutionary hands. So that's kind of the situation in Brazil and this ear in October, there will be a new presidential election. So this is going to be a very tense year because we also have for the first time in their own time, almost declared fascist running. And he is like in the second place on the polls and his name is Mosel Natto and he's literally the grossest guy. Like I would say even grosser than Donald Trump because Donald Trump is still like just a major rich guy. And why didn't grow says old rich white guys are. But this dude is like ex military and like it's a whole new level of fascism, you know? And it's very concerned. So I think that's kind of what we see around here.

Speaker 1:

Do you have any hopes for, I guess anything positive that could come out of the election? It, it sounds like even if the worker's Party wins reelection, it's going to be more neoliberal reforms.

Speaker 2:

I think it's sad to say that probably our best case scenario is the worker's party, you know, getting the election. But I think what's most important for me is not the election itself, but the mobilization that has been happening with the major strikes like nationally at the whole day of the country stopped. And I was there like that never happened in my lifetime and 20 years old. I'm just in university, you know, I'm not like in the unions and not working yet and stuff like that. But I was in the streets and I, I saw like every body around me like stop doing what they're doing because it's not acceptable what our president is doing. And I think that is something, um, the United States can, can learn as well. Just like you stopped the whole country.

Speaker 1:

There's a fairly well known slogan, frequently used by the Iww of direct action gets the goods. And I think my own viewpoint shining through elections don't really seem to have that much power to change things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I'm personally or in the process of writing an essay about this topic in particular, but sort of like the main thrust of it is like, I don't agree with our comrades who say that you shouldn't participate in electrical. Toral politics that, you know, even just voting is a casting and approval for the system as it exists. But at the same time I see a lot of issues in sort of mainstream left politics of focusing too much on electorial ism and you know, professional politics and these kinds of things. And I really think that that there has to be a nuance there where we can use electoral politics, but in order to effectively use electorial politics, you have to have a mass grassroots movement behind it. That that is where the power comes from. Because if, if all we're, if we're only using the levers of bourgeois power, then the only thing that we can do is, uh, further bushwalk goals. Is that something that you're seeing down there as well that, that, that there's this sort of bifurcation between the who want a complete break with the, the current status quo and, and aren't involved at all in politics and then the people who are in politics don't have that kind of grassroots movement behind them?

Speaker 2:

I think my opinion personally is very much like yours. Like we have to use what we have. And we, if we have some electoral power, maybe we should vote because it's one of the things that we can do, but we shouldn't just do that. Uh, but I think you're in Brazil because of the Worker's party being like so massive and like historically massive, like since the, the, the late eighties and the early nineties, uh, most of leftist in the country join the Workers' Party. And Lula, that was the first workers party president was elected in 2002 so it historically has been late, a very massive party, but that has proven itself to be due to not listen to his grass roots. So I think like if people just maybe thought about not voting to the workers' Party for once, maybe we can have a solution. Because here in Brazil we have like a lot, a lot of parties different than the U S I don't get how you guys get like just two major parties and then like laughable small other parties as options. Like how are you guys calling yourself? Democracy, whatever.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm, yeah, it's, it's, it's a joke. It really is.

Speaker 2:

No, but I mean it's not the, like Brazil is like an example of democracy as well. We had a huge Hugh and we have an unelected president right now. So I mean, I'm just joking around. We're all fucked.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 2:

But here in Brazil, there is a lot of parties that I trust. There's a party that I'm in that is the communist, the Brazilian. How would I translate that? Yeah, the Brazilian Communist Party is the party that I'm in, um, that I assist on building and I, you know, do the grass roots thing in the university most of the time because we believe that, you know, university is a very good place for you to have very good Marxists discussions and to bring a lot of people to understand Marxism and to, you know, maybe become socialists or communists as well. So, um, my grass roots movements in more is more like in that side than in necessarily the, the unions or stuff like that because there's other people in the party doing that stuff because they're already working in places that has unions. So they can do that. You kind of, um, guide ourselves in, like, where are you at and what do you can work, what can you do in the place that you are at? So, I mean, university, I do the grass roots university thing and sometimes it's very like tiring because it seems like it's just a debate on ideas and nobody's doing nothing but a debate of ideas is extremely important and we shouldn't, you know, say that one thing is more important than another. Like if we think about, you know, direct action or grass roots, um, the two things are equally important and they both should happen. We can see like only direct action stuff, only grassroots do stuff low. Both of them do stuff. So, um, that's what I deferred myself from some of my inner friends that think more indirection, direct action. And I think a lot of about, you know, for you to have a, a praxis, you have to have, um, red marks. You have to read, it has read a Cooney, you have to have read stuff. And with all the Internet you can't have like really an excuse to not read the communist manifesto in my opinion because this is like the first step for you to understand what you have to do on the ground is you understand what you want things to become.

Speaker 1:

I personally do not describe myself. I describe myself as not being a theory person because I have trouble reading long things. I've read the communist manifesto but I could not read conquest at bread. I try and get enough of an understanding of it as I can but am very open about the fact that sometimes quite frequently that the praxis that I participate in is guided by my own sense of internal morality and justice. Yes. That thankfully other people seem to be able to find theory points that agree with my sense of internal morality and justice. So I guess I'm doing something right but discussing these theories and ideas and writings like especially Marxism I feel is helpful because if you don't know where you've been, you might end up back there doing it again.

Speaker 2:

Well I think you are, you have like a great point. Like not everyone is going to enjoy reading. I personally don't enjoy reading. I kind of do is like, I think it's my job. Like I am at the university, at least I can do to help anything is to understand what the fuck I'm promoting. You know? So I, I kind of forced myself into reading, but I, I say everyone should read the communist manifesto exactly. Because it's the, the easier text to re. So I think it is acceptable to do, you know, think people should read that. There's kind of no excuse to not read it, but I understand that you're not going to be like, I'm in a union and you're going to be like, so everybody's gonna read like chapter one of the capitol. Okay. No, people don't, are not going to do that. That is the responsibility. You have people there. I in the university I been,

Speaker 3:

yeah, not everybody has to read the country. So yeah,

Speaker 2:

like it's a very difficult text and it's a very dense Texas. And then you, you read again and again and you have to read again one more time. Cause he didn't get it the first time because it's like too much information and too little words, you know?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I'm on my second read through a value, price and profit and, and that's an introductory and it's supposed to be easy and, and still like, yeah,

Speaker 1:

I only understand value, price and profit. The amount that I do because of the theory episode of discourse collective talking about it. That's I think talking about theory, people who have read this stuff, talking about it and explaining it, helping people who maybe haven't read it or can't read it to understand it is one way that we all gain a greater understanding of it.

Speaker 2:

Yes. That's exactly why I tell you like, I think it's my job to read stuff because they think it's my job to explain to people that don't have the opportunity to read this stuff. I I need to, you know, be able to explain to, you know, regular people what Marx was fixing. So I am focused on the theory because of that. And also because I studied social studies, like the literal, you know, name of my, my[inaudible]. Is that how you see it?

Speaker 1:

Uh, have your Bachelor's program

Speaker 2:

bachelor? Yes, that's, that's the word. Thank you. Um, it's like social science. We study, you know, anthropology, political science and sociology. So we read a lot of marks in, you know, the university self. So I think my, what I study and what I believe politically are, you know, ingrained in some way it's connected and makes me, you know, understand berry better. They Siri. So when, um, you know, underground or when I'm talking to people that doesn't have the opportunity to be in university, that that I can explain that that all to to other people and also I can hear people, Stories, um, for me to better understand the theory that I've read because I don't think it's a one way road. Like I've read, so I'm going to teach any everybody like, no, that's, that's not how it works is usually, you know, a mutual conversation. You explain me what he have you seen on the ground than I explained. You're what I have read, you know,

Speaker 1:

nodding my head vigorously. Then I think I gave myself a headache.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Universities in Brazil are free. I just want to tell you that no one gets in in depth because they are in the university.

Speaker 1:

I envy that so much.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm in. It really is just, we could go on and on about like how ridiculous it is that the, the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world puts people into lifelong crushing debt in order to get a goddamn education.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Come on in. Also like healthcare. Like what? Yeah, what have gone wrong?

Speaker 3:

That is a good question. Yes.

Speaker 2:

What has gone wrong?

Speaker 1:

I, I would say that it was wrong, right from the very moment that white people invaded and colonized. It's not so much shit went wrong. It's, it started bad and just all wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Speaking about white people and things going wrong. So there is a, there's a long history of, of, of not just, you know, what most an educated liberals would call imperialism, but there's a long history of these, this post-classical imperialist era where a new form of imperialism came in and dominated by the United States and you know, people learn about it. And this sort of like abstract way is like the Monroe Document and Air Monroe doctrine and these kinds of, um, sort of protector it kind of relationships, especially with people in and countries in the, the South America. So Latin America.

Speaker 1:

Could you maybe illustrate with an example that since

Speaker 2:

it's been a long time since I was in school,

Speaker 3:

right. So, uh, for example, so the Monroe doctrine itself, uh, stated that no other Western power, no other, uh, empire could come into Latin America because that was sort of the United States is territory essentially. So it was, um, it was basically the, the doctrine that kicked out the Spanish, uh, from, um, for example, Cuba and justified neocolonialism in places like Guatemala and El Salvador. And, and you know, the actions taken in Chilay and other places and, right. So with this, what does history, you know, people who are trying to, people who are trying to be good socialists in the first world, especially in America, we have a really complicated relationship with you guys and I kind of want to know what that relationship is from your side before. I like start asking more specific questions about it.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Um, first of all, I hear when we talk about imperialism, you're literally talking about the u s all the time that that is, you know, set up the same thing. We usually call it, you know, presidents or United States in left communities we say like there's imperialists pigs and stuff like that. Uh, that, that is common, a common word used here and accurate and accurately. Yeah, because it is, what can I do? You know, I personally, you know, I speak English fluently so I have access to a lot of media from the u s that I can understand what they're has been going through and understanding, you know, kind of what's going on by listening to podcasts and watching videos on youtube and stuff like that. I, I can, you know, I have access to that when most people here don't speak English speaking English is like a very huge privilege here. So most people don't get that sense of, you know, solidarity with American people as I can get because I can, you know, see the media that you guys are producing, you guys, the media, I mean, you know, stuff like that, like small media, small podcast, small youtube channels of people locally doing their thing. And usually people would just think Americans are just, oh, he mostly alienated and mostly in favor of everything the president does it, whatever president that is, you know, and I mean, I, I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I'm eight, I think at least a fraction of the population is not as a Leo naked and can see that a lot of stuff is going wrong. Exactly. Because it's going wrong for the people in the United States itself. I think on ears before where you had, you know, uh, a welfare state in the United States, but the United States were like fucking, uh, other people's countries, maybe people there were more alienated than they are right now because I'm in the moment that you don't have jobs, you don't have, you know, a living wage, you don't, you don't have healthcare, you don't have university, you're going to get pissed off and you're going to question of what is going on. Right. So, um, that is kind of the, my, my point of view is to listen to socialists there even. Uh, but understanding that, uh, socialists, they are the minority and it's okay to call American pigs because of his, you know, here in Latin America, we all had like major, you know, military coos because of the CIA that, that happened, you know, so, um, that the red scare was brought into our country because of the, the CIA, but we already had the communist party, the Brazilian Communist Party. It was founded I think like in the late twenties. So when then we had like the party had two periods of being illegal and one of those periods was with, um, the, the military coup and a lot of people or you know, arrested murderer, tortured, or because the United States didn't want Soviet Union to have anything to do with the Latin American countries. That was their territory for their exploration. Right. So, um, I think, I don't know about other countries in Latin America as well as I know Brazil, but I'm pretty sure all that in America, you know, has that memory of the United States being a fucking asshole all the fucking time. So, um, most people in Brazil, if you're going to ask them, Hey, what do you think about the United States? If they are less tendency, they're gonna be like, fuck the United States. I want to, you know, drop bombs there and I, I don't fucking stand out of place is like the evil in the form of a country. And if they're writing, they're going to be like, it's the best place on earth. I Brazil was like that. They had no problem. Everything there is perfect, you can have the best cars, the best cell phones. And to that argument, I'm like, okay, but you don't have healthcare a little, you know? No, I mean that's, that's Kinda the, the idea of the Brazilian idea of the United States. You have like two polarized or you think it's perfect or you think is like the evil in the form of country, you know? So that's kind of that. And I think, um, I think more materially, I think just, it's a place where there's people and there's people that I agree, reason that people that I don't agree with, with the state of the United States, like officially state with, you know, capital s I will say, I don't know. Uh, I, I don't like the United State, but that doesn't mean I don't like it's people necessarily, you know.

Speaker 4:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Cause I understand the struggle that you guys go through right there.

Speaker 4:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Because we, people who live in the United States are maybe decades, maybe hundreds of years after the United States visited that kind of horrible experience on other countries. It's finally come back so that people living in the United States are experiencing it too.

Speaker 3:

Empire comes home. Yeah. And, and it's, it's increasingly getting worse. The black community in America has always been the canary in the coal mine in, in many, many ways. For what, you know, especially poor white people should expect to see, you know, one or two generations down in the future and it looks bad, like really bad y'all. And, and, um, you know, part of this, this idea of being, uh, the, the sort of like dominant hegemonic power in the world and more specifically within Latin America, there's also, you know, even even people on the left who have this kind of, you know, a critique of empire within the United States, they will oftentimes when they see a comrade in another country doing something or, or, uh, advocating for something within their own country that they don't like, then they then sort of carry on that sort of imperialist notion of telling other people what to do instead of, instead of what I think our primary focus should be is, you know, I don't care what specifically you want to do in your own country, in your own neighborhood. You know, the only thing, the only thing I ever have any real power over is what I do. And to a lesser extent what my country does. So, you know, for me, like I think the highest form of solidarity that we can have right now is just get the United States to get off the back of like fucking the entire rest of the world. So is that something that you agree with or, or is that something that you see, you know, as, as happening? Uh, an issue with international solidarity with comrades in the United States?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, um, first of all, I think not necessarily the good people in a country are responsible about what they're politicians are doing because I think that's a very liberal idea that you have any power in the political agenda. In a capitalist world. When you read Marx in loan, when you understand it's mindset, you see that you don't really have a lot of power in any scenario besides, you know, strikes and you know, influencing, um, how much value of capitalism capitalism is going to, you know, make. So that's, you know, the only power we have at all. So I, I don't hold, you know, people in the United States is responsible for what, for what the state of the United States has done. But at the same time, I think for a liberal rented like example for a leftist liberal, let's see, uh, you, you talk about like privileges and, oh, um, I'm Hawaii so I had the privilege, uh, to with people of color. Um, if you are cisgender or if you are, you know, it heterosexual with stuff like that, I think, um, a lot of imperialism as it, you know, citizens of the United States, you can think about it like that. Like police yourself not, not think that you know, the answer to other countries, you know, just like a cisgender person is not going to have the answer to a trans person. You know, it's, it's the same mindset. Like you have a huge privilege that you were taught that you are better than this other individual or these other country. Um, in this example. So just like you have to police yourself and to not think like, oh, the D's are probably dictatorships because they don't like the United States. Well wait a minute. Like if they, uh, my mindset right now, it's usually if someone doesn't like the United States, my first instinct is to agree with them and then look into if they are right or wrong. It's not like the other way around, you know? So I don't know if that answer your question, but I have a question that doesn't exactly follow along from that, but how do you, and to a lesser extent, your comrades in the party that you're in the Brazilian Communist Party feel about the concept of borders and the concept of countries, uh, in terms of, do you think that they should continue to exist? Okay. Uh, that's a very tricky question because we are talking about internationalism. Uh, but the thing is when you are, our analysis is that when you are in a, in a country that is a lot submissive to another country, like we are to the United States, you know, are right. Queen is usually not like national list usually are right wing is, you know, well, we should sell stuff to, you know, millionaires in the United States. We have oil. We should sell that to them. Like, no, no, don't do that. And you know, so usually that's a, that's a very different thing that we have here in the United States. When you're a nationalist, you're usually more of leftist because you want to, you know, build or economy and not depend on United States. When you're writing, you want to become the United States. So you want to, you know, give the states anything you can so they can, you know, pat you on the back and say, Oh, you are a good country. So here in Brazil, like in my party who specifically we, we have this conversation a lot, but usually we think about, you know, freshly have, should think about how we can, um, become independent economically and socially and everything like that. All of the United States of the United States imperialism. Because here you can walk in any major city, you're going to see Starbucks and Mcdonald's, Burger King, like everywhere. So what's, what's really the difference, you know, between here and there, we don't believe in our people. We don't believe in our communities. We are is we are always looking, you know, to the United States to see what we should do, you know, what we should bring here or stuff like that. And that is something that it is, has historically being planted here, you know, by the United States. So they can sell what you guys produce to us. But that also creates and self image of we are worse than they are, you know, so our mindset in our party, it's more like we have to take care of ourselves, team as a country, you know, take care of becoming a country in itself, not dependent on the u s and then think about where we going to do, um, with borders and uniting, you know, with other places and stuff like that. But most people are usually okay with the idea like of our party specifically, um, in, in leftist left to speak point in general are very sympathetic to all Latin America. Like usually people in the last st that we should be closer to Latin America and, you know, stop having relations with the US that would be more productive to Brazil. But, um, people in power and Neil the Bros and right wing and you know, the people that don't really think about politics a lot usually saying, um, oh, why would we want to be more close to Latin America, the airport and the United States is rich. Like the, my sense is just that, you know, when actually we have a lot more in common culturally with Latin America than the United States white we are and yeah, I don't speak Spanish. I only speak English. You see how we are Colma is like, my second language is not Spanish, his English, because the United States is more important than the rest of Latin America. That is closer to me. Like that's, that's all like very, um, built in a way that, you know, it's to make Latin American countries hostage to the u s because they don't bring the theirself themselves together. Other Latin American countries because they have the language in common and stuff like that. They usually have, you know, more relations than Brazil to the rest of the Latin America. Brazil's kind of like isolated and extremely, you know, we call it anchor McGeesters that would be like giving up. We say that, uh, our country gives up a lot to the, the u s like anything that you as once we kind of give it to them or oil or whatever, you know, or people or state, everything belongs to the US in the right wing mindset.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. You know, the sort of colonial protectorate mindset. It's funny that you brought up that question specifically because the reason why I got into that conversation that really helped me solidify how I feel about interacting with comrades, especially in the global south, was that it was some kind of Twitter beef over a comrade from Jamaica who said that he would support bourgeois nationalists in his own country over, um, you know, socialists in the first world. And, and you know, like that kind of got my hackles up. But you know, thinking about something like that, it's like, you know, the, the whole concept of nationalism search to get flipped on its head when you're talking about countries that are on the receiving end of imperialism where nationalism, you know, primarily like in order to be a nationalist in this country, you have to make that break with the, the colonists. You have to, um, you have to end that imperial relationship. And so like I, it in nationalism obviously wherever it is can go very, very wrong, you know, but at the same time, nationalism in, in a country that is being, you know, an oppressed by an imperial power is not the same as nationalism from the empire itself. That that I think that that is a very key distinction that a lot of people who maybe aren't thinking quite so much about, you know, local contexts are, are sort of thinking in the sort of theoretical abstract space that doesn't have much bearing in reality. Don't tend to see

Speaker 2:

yeah, that that is, that is exactly it. I think you got it perfectly. Um, but I am also going to say that I'm here in Brazil, we also have discussions with, usually that is the point where you determined that you are communist or you're an anarchist because usually the anarchist here are like, fuck nationalism. You guys are, you know, going to a very, um,

Speaker 3:

and playing with fire.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Kind of playing with fire. Like you, you cannot do that. You're going to, you know, become worse than what we already have and stuff like that. And, um, the communists are usually like, well, you're not understanding the reality and you are too, in theory, it's a great debate exists. And I understand both sides of the oven and you know, usually a lot of like read that that brings us together better shape that he says that he's a panel last this. And I understand that so much because, you know, I almost always am hanging around enter artists. Like usually my friends are energies, but I am like profoundly communities. Like, you know, like it's always like I have a, you know, the hammers to go in my head, my forehead, like that level of communists. And so, uh, I use you to this, the debates and I usually think they are helpful. You know, they have to exist. There is supposed to be people telling us no nationalism is not okay because yeah, it can sometimes not be okay. You know, so we have to keep people reminding us that, but at the same time we have to remind them that, you know, not promoting or nationalism is it keeping with the status quo. At the same time,

Speaker 1:

solidarity and power building amongst oppressed people can be described or could be called nationalism. But as Paulo Freire says, it's oppressed people that will free us from the system. So it's hard to say, you know, nationalism is always bad because as it is applied in places that are oppressed, it can have positive connotations and symbols,

Speaker 2:

industrial in record system, that is the dialectics of reality.

Speaker 1:

I did promise somebody, I would never learn what that word means. Um, just so you know, that's, that's fine.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry to anything. It's been, you know, the, the academic side to discover station cannot run from it.

Speaker 3:

Uh, it's, it's fine. She, she tends to poke me is when I start getting a little bit too academic. So it's mostly because I don't understand so, but you know, um, with the, the nationalism, we talked about that a little bit on, uh, where in our praise our brown, where we talked about where we talk to our heavier from Les Brown berets. And it's, it's again that, that idea of, you know, an oppressed group of people sort of binding together in, in a common identity that is formed, you know, in a primarily as a response to colonial and imperial oppressions. And having this, this, you know, shared a strong identity together in the form of nationalism is what helps them to really find, find a way to actually fight back against the, uh, the oppression that they are facing. Again, you have to be careful about it. That's why you know, your anarchist friends are important to, to keep reminding people that you can't. Like, you know, the dialectics must, must flow continuously. You can't speak, he can't, you can't stop at one point and say, nationalism, nationalism is, is a force for liberation here. Therefore, nationalism always and get stuck into that, but not recognizing that where that nationalism is coming from is, uh, is, is something that a lot of people tend to miss.[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

I also, I think, um, there, there will be, you know, moments where we need nationalism and theirs, it's going to be moments there we going to be against those. Sure. There's, uh, um, even if we're talking in the same country, if we talk, if we are talking about, you know, pre revolution or during revolution or after revolution, you know, nationalism is going to be needed in different ways or not needed in different ways as well.

Speaker 1:

Because I've been, I've been wondering for a while. Um, I had a chance to ask you as, as somebody from Brazil, as somebody from a country's that generally does not hit the headlines in the United States, um, even not even the Socialists newspapers that, uh, you try people try to persuade you to buy. Um, what do your mind can comrades and fellow leftists in the United States to do to support Brazilian solidarity or solidarity with leftist American leftist Latin American calm rates?

Speaker 2:

I think, um, promoting, uh, just information about what is happening here is always, you know, important because I think because I have seen the cue that happened like two years ago and I was like so frustrated. I was 18 years old. I was, you know, just becoming a communist, kind of like just regulating myself. I was already like from the left to see. Um, but I just saw that happen in front of my eyes in life television and I was like on Twitter trying to see if like any newspaper, anyone in the entire world work talking about it and no one was talking about it. You don't understand how you feel like alone at that moment. Like, okay, you have the entire country with you, but you don't have any other country. No one knows about it. No one fucking cares. So it's like, you know, like when you, when you read something that happened like far away in your life, pissed off about it, but at the same time you're like, well, what can I do? It happens like far away. You can, you know, share this information. Then other people can be pissed about it and maybe if enough people are pissed about it, there can be international mobilization of solidarity, you know, because, uh, that is very important to happen. Like, uh, the urbanizations that, I mean we have done that sometimes I have never been to one, so I cannot tell you, uh, what, what was the cause specifically. But I know that happens. You know, I know people mobilize in solidarity internationally and I think, um, uh, if, if we just, you know, if people just knew what was happening, maybe they would get pissed off enough to, you know, mobilize. But since no one talks about it, no one's gonna, you know, be pissed off so no one's gonna do anything. And then everything is going to just happen and everyone is going to, you know, every bruzee land is going to look at this situation and just think like, we have no power. We cannot do anything. Like, literally you just, uh, we call ourselves a democracy and you, you know, replace our president to someone that is not elected. How does that happen? It's like 2018 what, what is going on, you know? Okay. It wasn't 2018 but it was close to right. But so right now it was 2016 the Q happened, uh, and we have this under like an elected president until this day, you know, and there the newspapers here, you know, they talked like so much shit like promoting him, you know, you keep, you could clearly see like everywhere that it was like a planet plan thing with probably, you know, the CIA and outside forces in, you know, a lot of freak people involved and everyone agreed that it would be best for everyone should take out the, the elected president and everyone did. Like I am not a person to, you know, promote the, the, the Workers' Party. I think they are very neoliberal. I don't really think, you know, the, the are an example to be followed. But at the same time, like there were no actually concrete reason to, to take out her. So obviously it was like a cue, like it wasn't with the military, but it was a cute, so that's it. And, you know, and you're just gets frustrated because no one talks about it. I think that the thing is to promote, you know, information and I think, uh, following, you know, tell us whore that is, um, a media that is based here in Latin America. It's not with the university and state is not in it, but they talk a lot about the Brazilian state. Um, and they talk about all Latin America context and is happening here. I think following them maybe is like a very secure, um, font of information. Uh, uh, what, what would it be the word like source that's not font. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. The Font of information actually works in English as well.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay. So yeah. Um, following Dallas who are maybe, uh, you know, things that you hear and it's absurd that is happening around the world like that you think is the absurd telling friends and maybe, you know, maybe the, the major thing that we have to mobilize internationally is off. Getting pissed off is important.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, capitalism alien is, is like actively trying to alienate us from ourselves. If we're going to fight capitalism, we need to fight that alienation.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for mentioning Telesis Twitter account as something that we can follow. Do you yourself have a Twitter account that people who are listening to this can follow or any other Twitter accounts that you would like to promote?

Speaker 2:

Um, it's, it's hard to see that. I, uh, that I have any other suggestions because all the things that I follow usually about Brazil in Portuguese, you know, um, if I find any source in English about Brazil, I would probably, you know, linked to you guys. But I, I don't, I don't have anything in mind right now. I have my tutor come and usually, uh, I think you can chose the lake. Well my, my tweets, but also my Twitter account is not necessarily political as much as it is personal, but I usually, because I, you know, I'm an university, I'm a communist and usually pissed off all the time about stuff. I'm usually talking about a lot about politics as well. So, uh, my, my handle in Twitter is go deep or go home. So it's in English so they handle, so I think people can find it and usually in Brazil people don't understand what that, um, handled means. So I just know have just held to two Brazilian people.

Speaker 1:

We are coming up on about an hour now. So is that anything that you are interested or wanted to get out or talk about that we haven't covered or anything that you would like to promote or um, holler about, like yell about just get out to two people who are listening.

Speaker 2:

Um, I don't think so. I think we talked a lot about, you know, everything that is happening here and like my, my views. But I, I think I would just say maybe take a time to, to read the communist manifesto. Anyone that's reading this, I think it's a very easy book to read and it explains a lot. And if you like reading that and you like reading more stuff, just, you know, get down on Mark's a lot and it's going to be fun, I promise.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I also want to say that, um, uh, I'm really glad that you brought up, tell us sewer because to this day, I think my greatest Twitter achievement is that, uh, tell us also follows me.

Speaker 2:

That is, that is quite good. Yup.

Speaker 1:

Thank you very much for speaking with us today. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your, your knowledge and information and answering our sometimes ignorant questions.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me here. I'm very glad I can, you know, someone is willing to listen to what is going on here. That is, um, very, very important. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 5:

And for all of our listeners out there, thank you all for joining us. Go in peace and be in international solidarity.

Speaker 6:

Okay.